Apple Podcasts

SoundCloud

Spotify

Episode Summary 

Throughout the pandemic, nostalgia brought audiences back to classic television shows—from Andy Griffith to The Sopranos. Two particular TV series from decades past—Perry Mason and Columbo—wrapped us in a warm narrative blanket and proved to be uncontested classics. It’s no mystery why they’re so beloved by viewers across generations, given their charismatic lead characters and riveting writing. For a very special 50th Pop, the Question episode, Host Dr. Melinda Lewis teams up with Pennoni Honors College Dean and Distinguished Professor of English Paula Marantz Cohen to investigate the longevity and brilliance of Perry Mason and Columbo, exploring what makes these two cultural icons so impactful and ever-relevant to contemporary audiences in an age of streaming and binge-watching. 

Featured Guest Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College; Drexel Distinguished Professor of English, Department of English & Philosophy, College of Arts and Sciences, Drexel University ) 

Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Director of Strategy, Pennoni Honors College) 

Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD 

Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media) 

Producer Brian Kantorek (Associate Director, Marketing & Media) 

Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD 

Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek 

Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek 

Production Assistance Noah Levine 

Social Media Outreach Ka’Neisha Davis and Olivier Jacques 

Graphic Design Felicia Wolfer 

Logo Design Michal Anderson 

Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis 

Recorded March 16, 2023 in 157 Bentley Hall, Pennoni Honors College, Drexel University. Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. The views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of Drexel University or Pennoni Honors College. 

Copyright © 2023 Drexel University

TRANSCRIPT

Speaker 1:

[inaudible 00:00:15].

Melinda Lewis:

Welcome to Pop, the Question, a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here, I'm your host. Hey everybody. I'm here with Paula Marantz Cohen, Dean of Pennoni Honors College and distinguished professor of English here at Drexel University. And we are here to talk about mysterious loves of ours, Perry Mason and Columbo. Are you ready to dive into some popular mysteries?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I can't wait, Melinda.

Melinda Lewis:

You love Perry Mason. I love Columbo. I can't remember if you love Columbo.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I like Columbo, but not as much as Perry Mason. And let's make clear, it's the Perry Mason of old.

Melinda Lewis:

Yes. Not the current.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Not the current reincarnation of Perry Mason.

Melinda Lewis:

Did you grow up with Perry Mason or did you discover Perry Mason later in reruns?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I think later. I did see a few growing up, it seems to me, but it didn't hold me the way it did when I came upon him in reruns during the pandemic.

Melinda Lewis:

Oh, okay.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And then I found him infinitely soothing.

Melinda Lewis:

Really? What was it about... Is it him that is soothing or the narrative structure that is soothing or maybe both?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Both. Now this series started in the late fifties when Raymond Burr was svelte.

Melinda Lewis:

But also formidable.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Still formidable.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. He's seven feet tall.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Well, I didn't know that he... I felt that he was that tall. He just seemed sphinxlike.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Quite handsome, but not in a domineering way. He had a Godlike benign presence. But I liked that young Perry Mason quite a bit, and the people around him who made up his team, which included Della Street, who was just absolutely the most cheerful and delightful person and has nice outfits. And Paul Drake, the private detective who always comes in through the back door when needed, always available, who's very tall and I guess is supposed to be a hunk and says...

Paul Drake:

Hi beautiful.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

To Della when he comes in. And that threesome is very just comforting for me.

Belle Adrian:

Were you surprised when you found I didn't do it?

Perry Mason:

Of course not, Mrs. Adrian. I knew that all along. You just weren't the type.

Paul Drake:

And who is the type, pray tell?

Della Street:

Oh, that's easy Paul. Anyone who is not represented by Perry Mason.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And of course Perry Mason always wins his cases and always seems to know things that other people don't.

Melinda Lewis:

Is that part of the comforting is that he will always prevail.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

One, figure it out and also he just knows. He knows.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Because the interesting thing is he'll take the client because he thinks the client is innocent and the client who comes to him is always innocent, although he appears extremely guilty.

Melinda Lewis:

And it gets worse and worse as an episode gets going where it's like, "Come on, really?"" Yeah, I'm still taking this case." But

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I realize it's the opposite with Columbo, where Columbo, it's always, he's finding the guilty party who often seems innocent.

Melinda Lewis:

Yes, but he knows that.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And he knows.

Melinda Lewis:

And it's a very similar in the same way that he knows who the guilty person is. He's just trying to get them to confess.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes.

Melinda Lewis:

Whereas Perry Mason knows the person is innocent and is trying to get them exonerated/get the other person to confess [inaudible 00:03:46].

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Confess in the courtroom, yeah.

Melinda Lewis:

Right, right. Or is completely embarrassed by a Perry Mason question and they just-

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Crumble.

Melinda Lewis:

Freeze and crumble and cry to have a very dramatic moment.

Bert Nikols:

No, no. What are you talking about?

Perry Mason:

The killer accidentally overheard Thompson's phone call to Vivian Ames, a phone call setting up a perfect alibi for him. So he opened the door, went in, and then he killed Ned Thompson.

Bert Nikols:

No, no, I didn't do those things. I didn't kill Ned Thompson.

Perry Mason:

And you didn't plant Fallon's note in his pocket?

Bert Nikols:

No, no.

Perry Mason:

No, Mr. Nickols, you didn't kill Thompson, but you did. Mr. Wells.

Frank Wells:

Yes. Yes, I killed Red Thompson. I killed him. I kill him, I killed him, I killed him.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

So I'm wondering, in Perry Mason, he gives a certain kind of look when you know that he knows and that he's thinking. There's one episode where he says, "Did you do this?" And she says, "No." And then he takes the case. That's enough.

Melinda Lewis:

The structures are inverted. So with Perry Mason, you don't know who did it until it's revealed.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes.

Melinda Lewis:

You know that there's been a crime at the beginning and you know some of the people who will be involved as the McGuffins and stuff like that.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes.

Melinda Lewis:

But you don't know until the very end when Perry Mason's like, "Yep, you did it and here's the cigarette that proves it." Whereas Columbo, you witness it. I think there's maybe one episode or two episodes where it's a true mystery. And then Columbo comes in and seems to know immediately who did it. But you know he knows where he asks the follow-up, "One more thing, one more thing."

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I love that.

Melinda Lewis:

And then you know, yes, he's got it. He knows what's going to happen.

Columbo:

One more thing, sir. I almost forgot. One more thing that I wanted to check on, probably not important. That phone call that Deschler made the morning after your wife was taken, we checked on that and the call was definitely made by Deschler from his motel room.

Paul Galesko:

Yes, Lieutenant.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

You already know, but you want to follow the procedure by which Columbo comes to that understanding and can give evidence to the fact that that person is guilty.

Melinda Lewis:

Yes.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Whereas in Perry Mason, I love the way Perry Mason starts. He's not there in the beginning, usually not in the first half of the show. It's almost a film noir type of thing.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And it begins with characters. You don't quite know what's going on, but you quickly see that someone is pretty awful and is probably going to be murdered. It's another thing about Perry Mason is the person murdered is always someone you really don't care about. In fact, you are led to not like at all.

Melinda Lewis:

Yes.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

So there's no real sacrifice there. But then that person who seems guilty, who's right there usually holding the gun or whatever, is the one who either knows Perry Mason and goes to him or knows someone who knows him. And that person is of course taken on by Mason and found to be who he exonerates.

Melinda Lewis:

Right. And Columbo's just doing his job.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

He's just doing his job and he just knows he intuits right away. I mean, how does he know?

Melinda Lewis:

I always imagined that he knew people, because so much of him is about talking to everybody. Anybody who will talk to him about anything.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I love that, I think that's true. He's just very engaged with the world, but he's also very, very humble, unless it is mock humility. I mean, I guess it is in some sense mock humility, which is the little bit that can get on my nerves.

Melinda Lewis:

That's the thing that I love. The thing that I love about Columbo is that so much of him is about softness and people seeing that as weakness, but it's actually his greatest strength.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

But it's softness that is a little bit hypocritical. And I guess I find him menacing in a way I don't find... He's menacing, because he's pretending to be know nothing and to be very humble and in the clouds and absent-minded. But he's laser focused on who's guilty and is relentless about it.

Melinda Lewis:

You only really see him do it with murderers.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

With murderers.

Melinda Lewis:

And so I feel less bad, but he's also dealing with people who are manipulating him.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

That's true.

Melinda Lewis:

And are trying to convince... Are lying to him and saying, "Oh, I didn't do it because I was here, here or there."

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And there's often a class element I think in Columbo where he's sort of schlubby and he's certainly not rich. But the people that he interrogates and who are guilty are often very wealthy.

Melinda Lewis:

Yes, or climbing.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I think that's interesting. Or climbing or pretentious or arrogant.

Milo Janus:

That's enough, Columbo. I'm tired of your accusations and your innuendos.

Columbo:

Well, all I'm trying to do is determine the facts, sir.

Milo Janus:

You have anything to say to me, you say it through my attorney. Is that clear?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I don't know if I see that with Perry Mason.

Melinda Lewis:

The few episodes that I've watched, there does seem to be somewhat of a class element. There's something to be risked. There's money, there's divorces that will upend empires.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Right, right.

Melinda Lewis:

But there are also so many people that are a part of this ecosystem that also have stakes involved, which I think is really interesting. It's not just, "Let's tear down the rich, let's also look at this ecosystem of how this power dissipates."

Paula Marantz Cohen:

That's really good. There is an ecosystem.

Melinda Lewis:

There could be the wife, could be the mistress, could also be-

Paula Marantz Cohen:

The janitor.

Melinda Lewis:

The driver, the janitor. All these people have something at stake.

Speaker 13:

You know, it may be a minority opinion, but I feel sorry for Karen Alder, the lonely alcoholic. She had to be drunk when she killed her husband.

Perry Mason:

No, I think she was sober. And with a woman like Karen that's far more deadly than drink.

Speaker 13:

What made you suspect her?

Perry Mason:

Dr. Murray ruled out Agatha Alders death as murder. That narrowed the suspects.

Speaker 13:

Oh, what about the beach comber?

Perry Mason:

A blackmailer rarely kills the golden goose unless it stops laying.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

When the trial is going on, and it's not always a trial, there usually are closeups of, I think it's usually three people who are suspects. And one could be like the driver and one could be the wife and one could be the mistress. And you get the closeups and they have expressions on their face.

Melinda Lewis:

"Oh, it wasn't me."

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And it's usually one of those people. So I mean the structure is very predictable.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. And it's often the most pathetic person within that narrative.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

That's right.

Melinda Lewis:

The most put upon person that is...

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Exploited.

Melinda Lewis:

Exploited, yeah. As opposed to somebody else that might be on their level, which is always...

Paula Marantz Cohen:

So then you always feel some degree of identification and feeling for that person.

Melinda Lewis:

And that justice is being served.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes. Well, that's where I think Perry Mason appeals to me as a Godlike figure. I like the fact that he does seem to always have the right answers and he has a certain authoritative presence, justice embodied that he understands justice. And understands that this person could not have done this, because he understands that this is someone with good character. And even if there might've been some involvement, it had to do with extenuating circumstances that he understands. But I guess I like that notion, that Godlike position that somebody knows what's right and what's wrong. And he'll bend the law in order to achieve the results that he wants.

Melinda Lewis:

So I was going to ask you about that. Does that also comfort you that he is willing to bend and play?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yeah, I like that because I know that he's infallible. Now, having just taught Plato's Republic, I will say that's what Socrates is aiming for when he describes this ideal state, a philosopher king who will make all the judgments, because he'll be able to see the truth. He'll be able to go outside the cave and see what's really true, where everybody else is benighted. And I think Perry Mason is like a philosopher king, although you don't see him philosophize. But Tragg is the necessary resistance that you need, as is Hamilton Burger in the courtroom. Oh, your

Perry Mason:

Your Honor, I object. That's incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial. It's also improper cross-examination.

Judge:

Sustained.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

The courtroom always kicks in around the middle of the show, and we're now in court with Hamilton Burger as the prosecutor, that poor, poor guy. And he's always smug, he should learn that he's always going to lose, he never learns.

Melinda Lewis:

I know, he has such an attitude when Perry Mason comes in.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I know.

Melinda Lewis:

It's like, how many times do you have to lose to this guy to realize maybe that's it. It's just you're like, "Ah, not him. I'm always going to lose."

Hamilton Burger:

Ms. Street, did you give to Mr. Perry Mason any envelope that you received at 1427, Crane Avenue?

Perry Mason:

Objected to as assuming facts not in evidence. The court has already ruled that any evidence as to anything Ms. Street might've received on the day in question is incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial, unless the prosecutor first has connected it with this case.

Judge:

Sustained

Melinda Lewis:

Like Camus, you have to imagine Sisyphus happy. It's just not going to happen for you.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes. And I guess there is something heroic about Hamilton Berger continuing to prosecute. That's the system. And he will always do it and always think that he's on the verge of succeeding, but never succeeding.

Melinda Lewis:

Never.

Speaker 16:

Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast. You do. Are you on the Instagram or The Twitter or the Facebook? If I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.

Melinda Lewis:

S'up mom? Yeah, so you can find us on all those things actually. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Just go to Popquestpod on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at Popqpodcast. Or you can get us directly at popqdrexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. All right. Love you. Bye.

Speaker 17:

(Singing).

Melinda Lewis:

Do you actually enjoy solving the mysteries?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

A little bit.

Melinda Lewis:

Okay.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I will say I do like mysteries and I have read the Earl Stanley Gardner books, not all of them, but some of them on which the series is based, which were written in the thirties. And Earl Stanley Gardner was an attorney first, and then he wrote these books. And they're quite complicated, I have to say.

Melinda Lewis:

Oh, interesting.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

They're hard to follow. I mean, I love Nero Wolfe mysteries, which were written, well, at least they began being written around the same time. But they're not plot driven in the same way, and they don't have these convoluted lawyerly elements to them. But sometimes the Perry Mason shows are directly based on these novels, sometimes they're inspired by the novels. But the Perry Mason episodes can sometimes be quite complicated and hard to follow. You just go along with it and figure it, you don't really understand what's going on.

Melinda Lewis:

Eventually Perry will let you know.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yeah, Perry will let you know. Or you just like seeing the characters interact and the person found guilty at the end is fun to see. But there are times when I can follow it and I think this is probably who did it and can be sometimes right.

Melinda Lewis:

Do you have a percentage?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

No, I haven't really...

Melinda Lewis:

You haven't tracked it?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I haven't watched it with that degree of precision. No, I will say that there many nights, and there are even full weeks where I might go every night where around 10PM, I'll say to my husband, "Let's watch Perry Mason." And we will sit down and watch an episode of Perry Mason and then I'll go to bed. And it's like a good thing to watch before I go to bed. It just has a nice calming effect.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. I think it's nice that when things wrap up. I think to go to bed when things are easily packaged, put together, because that's not the way the world exists. I feel like all my packages are unwrapped by the end of the day. So to have something that is clear cut, mystery solved, must feel really nice, it's like a settling.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I like that. And I like seeing those three characters, are very appealing. I just like the way they interact. It's funny how asexual Perry Mason and Della Street are, even though they're always together and they're always going out to dinner. And they're always seen as a couple, but there is no romantic involvement.

Perry Mason:

Della, hey, come on girl it's midnight. Time you quit working.

Della Street:

Midnight. Why don't we just stay till tomorrow?

Perry Mason:

Union rules. Now, come on. Rise and shine.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Earl Stanley Gardner did not want Perry Mason sullied by any kind of romantic involvement or personal story. You know nothing about his personal life, nor do you for that matter about Columbo, Peter Falk's character. But he always uses his wife instrumentally in the conversation in some way. So in that sense, he and Perry Mason are both opaque characters.

Melinda Lewis:

Yes.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And that is intriguing. And you project what you want, but you're not given very much.

Melinda Lewis:

Which is I think, compelling as humans when you're like, "I want to figure you out."

Speaker 18:

Tonight starring Peter Falk as Columbo.

Melinda Lewis:

I don't know how much of it is rooted in Columbo and how much of it is rooted in, "I really like watching Peter Falk play Columbo." Because I think he's having the most fun.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yeah.

Melinda Lewis:

And I think that especially when the original writers Levinson and Link leave and Peter Falk becomes probably the controlling force of the show.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Is that so? How many seasons was it on? Do you have any idea? A lot.

Melinda Lewis:

I think so. The first seasons are 1971 or two, and then the last episode is 2003.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

So that's interesting. I think it started around the time that Perry Mason, at least the original series, I think he came back with some movies and Ironsides. I think it began in '57 and then I think ended in the early seventies or the late sixties. So there's a continuum there that maybe reflects the culture and it's changes.

Perry Mason:

This Is my secretary, Della Street, Ms?

Frances Celane:

Celane, Frances Celane.

Della Street:

Hello.

Perry Mason:

And Ms. Street likes to maintain an era of formality in the office. Things like appointments.

Frances Celane:

I haven't time for appointments, Mr. Mason. I need help, I'm being cheated out of a fortune.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

In a way, Perry Mason and his team are a very 1950s, early sixties style people in their configuration. He is the patriarch. The secretary is there as the helpmate, and then there's the man about town detective, and that's very set. And Columbo is more of an individual and more slippery and changeable and all of that, which maybe is more seventies, eighties.

Melinda Lewis:

Totally, because as you were talking, I was thinking about the shift from Humphrey Bogart as Philip Marlowe to Elliot Gould.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Oh wow. What a...

Melinda Lewis:

As Philip Marlowe. You know what I mean?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I didn't even know Elliot Gould played Philip Marlowe.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. It's The Long Goodbye, right?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yeah. And he's very much in the Columbo mold.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah.

Terry Lennox:

Nobody cares.

Philip Marlowe:

Yeah, nobody cares but me.

Terry Lennox:

You'll never learn. You're a born loser.

Philip Marlowe:

Yeah, I even lost my cat.

Melinda Lewis:

The Long Goodbye is 1973 and he plays Philip Marlowe. So I think that shows the shift in terms of one, the detective and what we are looking for in a detective in that time. And also the nostalgia for that scene, because all these people are watching Jean-Luc Godard films and they're using the Humphrey Bogart narrative, but also sad little men at the same time.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Not that Bogart or Raymond Burr are pompous, but they are monolithic characters in some ways that Elliot Gould and Peter Falk aren't.

Melinda Lewis:

There's little vulnerability with Marlowe and Perry Mason.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes.

Melinda Lewis:

They have everything under control.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes, exactly.

Melinda Lewis:

I don't think Elliot Gould has ever had anything under control.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Nothing under control.

Melinda Lewis:

And same thing with Peter Falk, right? And Cassavetes and Gazzara and all those indie guys, they never have anything in control.

Philip Marlowe:

So I probed into its mysteries. Every clue told me a different story, but each had the same ending, murder.

Melinda Lewis:

I think that unlike a Philip Marlowe or central figure that he has a team.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

That's true.

Melinda Lewis:

And I think that's also really important, is that he's not just the loner detective able to control all of LA or whatever their purview is. But that he has a very clear team that is very instrumental. They will travel to him in order to support his investigation.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And there's a division of labor.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I mean, Paul is always sent out to investigate. I mean, they're always available. Also, the thing about Perry Mason, he gets a call and he'll go across the country. He'll go to another country if necessary to do what needs to be done. He has plenty of time. There's a tremendous sense of teamwork and solidarity. I just feel it in the actors, that they like each other and will support each other. That may be part of what appeals to me.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah, there's a feeling of mutual trust and camaraderie.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Camaraderie.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah.

Perry Mason:

That chili's pretty hot, Paul.

Paul Drake:

Don't worry about me, I'm no tourist. I was weaned on this stuff.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

The first season, I believe there were 39 episodes.

Melinda Lewis:

There's a lot of episodes.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Oh my God. I mean, presumably Raymond Burr had to sleep in the studio some nights, because the work was so relentless.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. Well, Columbo was not necessarily a television show as much as part of the movie of the week. So they were making mini movies that would have commercial breaks in between the first episode directed by Steven Spielberg.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Really? Did he direct others?

Melinda Lewis:

He didn't. But he's referred to in another episode about a boy genius who's building a robot. And the character's name is Steve Spellberg. And it's right before Jaws so I feel like somebody must have been around hearing about this once director.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I have to watch that first episode. Now, the interesting thing with Perry Mason is that he has these guest stars. Often they're rising or they're falling.

Melinda Lewis:

I accidentally started with season four, episode one, Robert Redford.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Robert Redford, that's right.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah, Baby, baby, baby Robert Redford.

Perry Mason:

It's Hartley Bassett, isn't it?

Dick Hart:

Sure. You see, honey, I told you there was nothing to worry about. Somebody beat me to it. And it looks like he put up a little fight.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

So he was coming up. But then they have some stars from earlier, even the twenties and thirties who are coming down who are in various roles. And I think that's interesting too.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. I think that's the thing that I love about Columbo in particular, is that, again, when Levinson and Link go and it becomes less about the validity of the mystery and more about Peter Falk, it really becomes like watching actors act. And so there are people who are coming up and then there are people, like you said, coming down or have been in the industry for a long time. One of the favorite episodes has John Cassavetes, who has these amazing back and forths with Peter Falk.

Alex Benedict :

You know, Lieutenant, you're really a cocky fellow. You're very sure of this, aren't you?

Columbo:

I think that there is a very distinct possibility of murder in this case, yes, sir.

Alex Benedict :

I think there's a possibility, but I don't think it's distinct.

Columbo:

Suppose the murder in this case was a friend of hers? Suppose the murder in this case was a man who had access to her house, came and went whenever he wanted to?

Alex Benedict :

Promise me, you'll think about it when you come up with the correct answer, you'll let me know. I'm going to take a nap now.

Melinda Lewis:

Blythe Danner is also in that episode.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Oh, really?

Melinda Lewis:

As John Cassavete's wife, which is just such a weird triangle.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Now, Cassavetes is mostly a director, right?

Melinda Lewis:

Yes.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yeah.

Melinda Lewis:

So I can only imagine [inaudible 00:24:14].

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And he did these avant garde films during that period.

Melinda Lewis:

Yes.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yeah.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. Although-

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Is he guilty? Is he the guilty...

Melinda Lewis:

Of course he is.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Okay.

Melinda Lewis:

Of course he is. It's like Law and Order where the most famous person is definitely the one who did it.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yeah, that's true on Perry Mason too. It's interesting because sometimes when I watch these long form limited series as they're called, I can binge-watch if I have the time. And there's a cliffhanger, and you just want to know what comes next. But the beauty of Perry Mason, I guess Columbo too, is it gets wrapped up so nicely that you can go to bed, you know?

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. You don't have to spend nights wondering what the next scene is or shot is.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I just realized something about these new shows, the limited series, which can be very long or even multi-seasonal, are like long form TikTok. Because with TikTok too, you could go on till three in the morning. And things don't get wrapped up ever. And I think that maybe the nature of our culture now is we don't believe in wrapping things up.

Melinda Lewis:

Just chaos.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Or just the next signifier, the going on to the next, the next, the next and no closure.

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. I think that the market these days, you have to keep people interested. And I think the only way people are truly interested is if there's nothing that's wrapped up, they're constantly left to...

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Go to the next, wanting. And yeah, I don't know what that means about our relationship to each other and to the culture if that's healthy or not. There is something nice about being able to turn off the television and say, "Well, I'm satisfied."

Melinda Lewis:

Yeah. For both Columbo and Perry Mason, so much of it is about the joy of the process, not necessarily the success of figuring something out or like, "I did it, I solved it." Perry Mason solves it, lets you know. But that's not really the pleasure of that. And same thing with Columbo. "It's not, oh, he did it." And that's the success. So much of the pleasure for me is the procedural element, which should, in theory be boring, but is so compelling to watch these people parse through.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I think that's absolutely right.

Columbo:

You mean just by dialing like a phone number, that letter will come out across the street or on the other side of the world in seconds?

Rebecca Christy:

It's not the same letter. It's an exact copy of that letter, a facsimile.

Columbo:

A facsimile, a fax. Now I'm getting the hang of this thing.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Both these actors have a personality that's compelling and you want to follow them. You want to immerse yourself in their method, and it doesn't even matter what's going on. And you have a certain formulaic equality that's comforting.

Perry Mason:

Am I interrupting something?

Della Street:

No, just a suit involving $8 million. Now, which of you two handsome gentlemen, is going to take me to dinner?

Paul Drake:

Just a minute. Call it, Perry.

Perry Mason:

Heads.

Paul Drake:

Well, we both win.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Do you think these shows would appeal if they were watched by our students?

Melinda Lewis:

I think that the reason I started watching Columbo in the first place was that one, it was a pandemic, and I thought, "Why not?" But two, there were a lot of people who were young watching this show. And I was like, "What is it that people who did not come of age in the seventies getting out of this?" And I do think that students would appreciate something being wrapped up in a bow.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

You're right though, that they're available, which is revolutionary when you think about it, going back to my childhood, the fact that you can access these things so easily. The thing is, our students tend to be very wrapped up in the present, I mean, what's new? And so although some of them are interested in digging back, I think they would have to be directed. I think they would love it. I mean, they're so bombarded with media that I don't know if they have the time or energy to go back to some of these things which are available and which they would like.

Melinda Lewis:

I have one thing left to ask of you. How would you describe Perry Mason to somebody?

Paula Marantz Cohen:

An infallible figure of justice with a team that works flawlessly to affect the right end.

Melinda Lewis:

That's why you're a writer. You're so good at coming up with the right words to put together.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

I think I could do better with time, but that's good enough. Yeah, we could talk forever.

Melinda Lewis:

Oh, for sure.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Yes. But this has been so pleasurable, a great conversation. I think we wandered to many good places.

Melinda Lewis:

Of course, yeah.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

And I hope this will inspire people to watch both shows.

Melinda Lewis:

Me too. I think we've made some good arguments and cases for both of our people.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Great.

Melinda Lewis:

Thanks, Paula.

Paula Marantz Cohen:

Thank you.

Melinda Lewis:

Pop, the Question was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Erica Levi Zelinger, Pothe deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University.

Speaker 26:

I know it's important, I do, I honestly do. But we talking about practice, man. What are we talking about? Practice. We're talking about practice, man.