Pop, the Question (S5: E37)
Life Lessons in True Crime
Featured Guest Anthony Meoli (Criminologist and Serial Killer Expert)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College)
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Assistant Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Graphic Design Camille Velasquez
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded March 1, 2021 through virtual conferencing. Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. Copyright © 2021 Drexel University
To learn more about Anthony Meoli, visit www.anthonymeoli.net.
Episode Summary
The popularity of true crime indicates a fascination with crime. Whether that interest is rooted in the perpetrators, the horror of the crimes themselves, or the pleasure in detective work, audiences continually gravitate toward narratives like The Staircase and Night Stalker: The Hunt for a Serial Killer or podcasts like My Favorite Murder and Criminal. True crime has become a lifestyle, where enthusiasts even attend conventions like CrimeCon. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis examines the truth behind true crime in conversation with criminologist and serial killer expert Anthony Meoli, who has spent years corresponding with those behind bars. From Michael Alig to Gary Whiteside (and Charles Manson and Ted Kaczynski in between), Meoli has built relationships with some of the more notorious people of true crime lore and provides insight to the complexities and nuance of crime and criminality.
Transcript:
Melinda Lewis:
Welcome to Pop, the Question, a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm here talking to criminologist and serial killer expert, Anthony Meoli, who has spent more than 25 years interviewing serial killers, spree killers, and arsonists, amongst others. And many are what would be considered high profile, people like Ted Kaczynski, Jack Kevorkian, Lee Boyd Malvo, Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez. And this is just a sliver of names that can be found on his site, anthonymeoli.net.
Melinda Lewis:
Tony, thanks for hanging out with me today. I know that it's maybe old hat for you, but I'm really excited to get down and dirty in this business. But I was wondering what your route is? Do you remember your first interaction with crime?
Anthony Meoli:
Probably began when I was at Penn State in Quantitative Business Analysis.
Melinda Lewis:
Not what I was imagining.
Anthony Meoli:
The reason I was in that major was because allegedly it was the highest paying major coming out of college. And then something happened horrible to a friend of a friend of mine, and needless to say, it was actually a serial murder that's a cold case to this day. It changed my mind on what was important in life I guess. I found the need to figure out why people do such things. And my parents were like, "He's headed on a great course. We paid X amount of dollars for this education. Why are you switching to criminology? What is that?" And that's where it all started.
Melinda Lewis:
I mean, were you investigating at the same time as you were taking these courses? Or were you just understanding the work before diving into crime?
Anthony Meoli:
1993, the internet as we know it was invented. The AOL [00:02:18].
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, I remember that very clearly, yeah.
Anthony Meoli:
I was still typing on a computer typewriter, so I didn't have a lot of tools to investigate. I didn't have access to ViCAP or stuff like that, but I wanted to get into the FBI. You go to a top 50 university, you graduate, you'll pass the FBI exam, and you'll become a special agent. I'm like, "That sounds like a perfect plan. That's exactly what I want to do."
Melinda Lewis:
Jodie Foster made it look so easy.
Anthony Meoli:
Clearly, it's easy to get into the FBI.
Mr. Crawford:
Starling. Clarice in. Good morning.
Clarice Starling:
Morning, Mr. Crawford.
Mr. Crawford:
I remember you from my seminar at UVA. You grilled me pretty hard as I recall in the bureau of civil rights record in the Hoover years. I gave you an A.
Clarice Starling:
A minus, sir.
Mr. Crawford:
We're interviewing all the serial killers now in custody for a psycho behavioral profile. Most of them have been happy to talk to us. You spook easily, Starling?
Clarice Starling:
Not yet, sir.
Anthony Meoli:
Then I realized I probably should have stayed in QBA because the exam to get into the FBI is highly geared towards those with accounting and business degrees. So I went out to law school and other things to live the life of a normal human being. But that's at the time when I started to write to inmates directly, because I was like, I'm not giving up on this. And I figured I don't need to be in the FBI. I don't need to be a police officer. If I can get the information from the source, what better way to learn? And so that's what I did. I started to write. I just kept at it and kept at it until I got one response and then two and then three and then 140. And that's where I am today.
Melinda Lewis:
I was about to say the amount of names that you have on that list, I knew couldn't be everybody, but it's still a couple of scrolls deep to get to the bottom of the list. It's super impressive.
Anthony Meoli:
For me, it's just, it's a nonstop life of horrific news by these guys. At the same time, I'm able to impart my knowledge to others. And also speaking to law enforcement, I'm able to offer them some assistance because it's something that not everybody gets to do. I worked inside the Fulton County Jail, which is the worst jail in America for a full year. I was a pretrial release officer before I graduated from law school. I interviewed every inmate who came in there, whether they committed murder, arson, rape, or they were there for speeding. Whatever it was, I interviewed them. And if they came up relatively clean, I would go before a magistrate judge and say, "Melinda Lewis presents as a low risk inmate based on X, Y, Z." And all of that helped as a life lesson in understanding how to relate to someone who isn't of your culture, isn't of your background. But my parents have never really liked what I do.
Melinda Lewis:
I can imagine.
Anthony Meoli:
But now whenever they have questions like The Staircase, which was a phenomenal series on Netflix, they could not get on the phone enough with me to get my analysis of it. Because they had, they both disagreed on the case. One felt this way, and one felt this way and they're like, "Well, whatever Tony's opinion in is going to be the right opinion."
Speaker 1:
Kathleen Peterson was found dead at the bottom of the couple's staircase.
Speaker 6:
Peterson's husband is novelist Michael Peterson.
Speaker 7:
He wanted to give the appearance that this was a wholesome, functioning family. Well, that simply is not true.
Anthony Meoli:
It was just interesting to see how 78 year old parents are as involved in true crime shows. And it came full circle. 25 years ago, they were like, "We would never watch these shows." Now it's all they watch. But I grew up thinking back, since my dad was a surgeon, he was in internal medicine and he was one of the first to do laparoscopic surgeries and things like that. He would take Polaroids of his surgeries. They were constantly on the counter. I wouldn't see the person's face, but I would see what he had done and his suturing. And so I got to see all this morbid stuff, things that maybe somebody shouldn't see, but it was how he learned. And it didn't really bother me because I was so used to it. And so that's it.
Anthony Meoli:
I mean, everything was a life lesson that brought me around to how I would formulate my letters. And then how do I continue that relationship to foster information that's going to help me as well as be fruitful for both of us? And that's the challenge. Another thing that is important is reciprocity. If somebody sends me a letter, a relationship doesn't begin until I send that letter back. And if you're going to do this as a human being and try to write to others, learn your subject. Read about them, learn a nuance or something that you wouldn't expect to them for you to talk about. And then talk about that facet, because that's going to be of interest to them that you found something that not everybody's writing to them about.
Anthony Meoli:
[inaudible 00:07:36].
Anthony Meoli:
Like Charles Manson, unless you wrote ATWA on the letter, which means air, trees, water, and animals, he wouldn't respond to you. So Manson's way of deciding who he was, he would take all the letters and throw them on his mattress and get rid of all the ones that didn't say ATWA. And he knew that those people had at least either written to him before or had an idea of what his philosophy was. And then from there, he would just take a few that he would write to because he would get a hundred pieces of mail a day. He was not the most heinous criminal, but I would have to say maybe the most famous criminal.
Melinda Lewis:
And when you are sitting down to write out your first letter, your letter of introduction, how are you coming across the person that you want to interview?
Anthony Meoli:
If you look at some of the names, a lot of these names, you're probably like, "Who is this person?" And I get a lot of people when they hear about a crime, are like, "Did you write to this guy?" I'm like, "I don't write to every human being on the planet." There are certain cases that stick out to me that are, these are pertinent cases like Mark David Chapman, who is extremely reclusive. But we actually talk on the phone about once or twice a month. He emails me about once a week and he writes me about every three or four months. I'm on his visitation list. There's another case for Kelly Gissendaner, who was the only female in Georgia ever to be executed. It was a murder-for-hire plot where she killed her husband. I had written to her, but she did not write to many people, but she wrote to me in a handwritten form. And I got to know her a little bit.
Anthony Meoli:
I'm interested in the breadth of things. So it's not always men. It's not always serial killers. It's not always horrific crimes. Then there's arsonists like John Orr, who I've written a book with, done an interview with. John and I speak every week and have for years. And he denies being the most prolific arsonist in American history, which is fascinating to me because I went through this with Kenneth Bianchi, the Hillside Strangler, for eight years, eight solid years. I am not joking when I say I have a thousand letters from Kenneth Bianchi. I have his artwork and I have a two and a half hour audio interview of every possible topic you could talk about. Whether or not it's believable or not, that's the truth that you get to hear.
Speaker 8:
This call will be recorded and monitored. I have a collect call from an inmate.
Speaker 9:
Please wait while your call is being connected.
Speaker 10:
Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the Twitter or the Facebook? If I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Melinda Lewis:
What's up, mom? Yeah. So you can find us on all those things actually. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, just go to popquestpod on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at pop Q podcast. Or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. All right, love you. Bye.
Speaker 19:
We got us a serial killer.
Speaker 11:
There was no doubt about it. This was a pretty sick individual.
Speaker 12:
The so-called Night Stalker who has terrorized California.
Speaker 13:
The same man is suspected in six to eight murders and 25 to 30 attacks.
Speaker 14:
We've never encountered anybody like that in criminal history.
Anthony Meoli:
Richard Ramirez is the Night Stalker. There's a big series on Netflix right now, which is actually pretty good. I actually spoke to Richie several times on the phone. He died of natural causes, but his letters were like a kid. When you think of Richard Ramirez and the Satanic symbol, you would think he would be this, have these horrific letters that are bloody. No, it wasn't. He was the complete opposite. And it was almost like he was seeking his own childhood again. And for 20 years plus, my wife has heard, I'll have to get out of dinner and be like, "Sorry, guys. I got to take this call," because they're calling me from wherever and whenever. It's not like they care about my dinner time. And it goes to show you the various factors that factor into how some of these people are processed in and out of these prisons.
Anthony Meoli:
But if Charles Manson is calling me, I'm going to take that phone call because he doesn't call that many people. And to get that phone call, is... I spoke to Charlie a half dozen times and I could see why if I could put myself back several decades and put myself at Spahn Ranch and be sitting around in a circle with a campfire, and this guy was telling these stories as he was, he would be an entrancing figure to me, especially under the influence of drugs.
Anthony Meoli:
[Inaudible 00:12:58]
Anthony Meoli:
And so that's what I took away from the Manson phone calls was not so much, you didn't need dozens of phone calls. It's definitely something that you had to experience to understand.
Melinda Lewis:
I mean, when you're taking a phone call, I know that at dinner, it might be hard to get into a mindset, but do you have to prepare yourself or go through a Rolodex of, okay, this is who's calling? Or do you just pick up the phone?
Anthony Meoli:
The phone that just rang was a serial killer.
Melinda Lewis:
I wondered as much.
Anthony Meoli:
That was Jim Ruzicka from Washington State. I answer are more calls from serial killers than I do from my own parents or my own brother. So for me, it's more of remembering where we were from the last call than it is getting in the mindset of preparing myself. I'm just an earpiece for them. They know I've put myself in there, literally and figuratively, everything, psychologically. So they know I'm somebody who they can tell me their story.
Speaker 15:
If you want to say I slept in the same house with a dead body, okay, fine. I'll buy that. But in the same room, no. And besides, the dead won't bother you. It's the living you got to worry about.
Anthony Meoli:
Here's the interesting thing about serial killers in general. We know the worst thing that they've ever done ad nauseam. I don't know the worst thing you've ever done. Are you going to tell me? Are you going to tell me right now the worst thing you've ever done in your life if I asked you? No, you're not going to. And that's a powerful tool that we as human beings have is knowing the worst thing that a human being has done and judging them for it. But what were those little things that led you to commit these crimes? And sometimes more importantly, what have you done since? What have you learned? Have you moved on from it? Or are you still that person? My lot in life I think if it's going to be anything is to befriend those who have been unfriended, those who have been labeled as monsters. But sadly enough, they're not monsters. They're human beings and they've committed monstrous acts because there is a human being long before the criminal act.
Anthony Meoli:
And that criminal act is something that is wholly different than the individual. Sometimes you have to take that risk. You have to see if you can get them there. And we see that with Mindhunter and other shows like that, where you want to get them to that point to where they break. But you have to be careful, because like Nietzsche said, "If you stare into the abyss long enough, eventually the abyss stares back." And it is true. If you dance with the devil long enough, eventually you become his partner. And there are times where you want to get away from it. It's some horrible stuff. And I am not a believer in born evil, if you were wondering that. And I've talked to dozens and dozens of forensic professionals at countless forensic seminars, and none of them believe in the born evil theory. Now, do I believe in predisposition? Sure.
Anthony Meoli:
It helped me develop over the years my four factors of violence. I call it quadrant theory. And it's abuse, neglect, abandonment, and hatred. Jim Ruzicka is literally my quadrant theory, times 10. He's got all four that factor in it. And I've seen this in multiple serial killers. But at the same time, it's let me realize that they weren't born that way. They'll admit that. They were made and they were made through various life circumstances.
Melinda Lewis:
I find it so compelling what you do, because I feel like so many people I know are getting their information from popular culture resources that can be marketed, that can be compelling, that can get people into it. But in some ways dehumanizes the person themselves. Is there such a thing for you as a good, true-crime entity? Or is there something that you would want the audience of these texts to think more about?
Anthony Meoli:
It's weird because people are like, "Tony, do you ever watch the show Mindhunter?" I'm like, "Yeah. I mean, I'll watch a series or two. But it's hard to surprise me. I live it."
Speaker 17:
This person you're after he has an overwhelming fantasy life. Fantasies of what he's done, what he wants to do, how he's going to improve. These dreams will consume him. Soon the real world won't even compare.
Speaker 18:
How do we catch a fantasy, Ed?
Speaker 17:
You can't, if he's any good.
Anthony Meoli:
But it's weird to compartmentalize the act from a human being, which is what I do. I mean, I just have a knack, I guess, for getting to know some of the most notorious people in ways that nobody else on the planet has ever done. And I'll take that over a PhD, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I'll go down in the history books as the person who's taken the most calls from serial killers. I don't know. The idea is that I try to look for the good in someone who has committed an atrocity so that I can get information about them and learn and give the information to others in the hopes that they will learn something.
Melinda Lewis:
At the end of the day, we're talking about human beings and not just a crime or a bad person, a stock figure or a type. That these are very human stories and have a lot more complexity to that. So I really appreciate you bringing that into a conversation. And I'm sure you have a lot of letters to write.
Anthony Meoli:
Yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
Thank you so much, Anthony. It's been a real treat.
Anthony Meoli:
All right. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 20:
Pop, the Question was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Erica Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University.