Pop, the Question (S4: E31)
Poop, the Question
Featured Guests Alaina and Jake (Undergraduate Students, Drexel University)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College)
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Assistant Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Graphic Design Nina Pagano
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded September 17, 2020 through virtual conferencing.
Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. Copyright © 2021 Drexel University
Episode Summary
As unpopular as it may seem, poop is omnipresent. We all do it, we all think about it, and we all have established practices and product preferences. Companies make big bucks from human bowel movements, while social infrastructure determines how we “go” about our daily lives. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis lets loose alongside self-proclaimed poop advocates and Drexel University undergraduate students Alaina and Jake to tackle this typically taboo topic with humor and pragmatism.
TRANSCRIPT:
Opening Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky "Pop, the Question" theme music plays with audio clips, featuring Oprah Winfrey and "The Golden Girls."].
Theme Intro (Melinda Lewis):
Welcome to "Pop, the Question," a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm here with Alaina and Jake and today we're going to talk about poop. They are Drexel students. Alaina, Jake, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves as people and as "poopsperts"?
Alaina:
Jake and I, I guess, are here because we really like talking about poop. We're just those friends who are always talking about poop with their friends, whether they like it or not; whether they asked for it or not. [Jake laughs.]
Audio Clips:
["Caddyshack" audio clip plays. Child accidentally drops a candy bar into the pool as "Jaws" music plays and everyone falls into a frenzy. Character at the pool says, "Get outta here." An elder at the country club says, "Get out! Didn't you hear me?" A child shrieks, "Doodie! Doodie!" Others gasp and run.]
Jake:
["Jaws" music from "Caddyshack" scene continues.] I just think we should all be able to talk about poop more.
Audio Clips:
["Caddyshack" audio clip continues. Elder admonishes, "Don't touch it!"]
Jake:
Definitely have done my share of pooping from the classroom to the woods. Just an important part of my life.
Melinda Lewis:
Alaina, you were the one who really broke the ground for this conversation. Can you explain your starting point for "Poop, the Question"?
Alaina:
My freshman year, I started keeping tabs on the bathrooms and I started making a mental list. And I always said that I would make a spreadsheet and rate the bathrooms at Drexel. And I haven't yet, but I feel like that's something I should do before I graduate. I think that that's important to pass down to people in the same way that a vegetarian who's going somewhere that might not have a lot of vegetarian food will give other vegetarians their list of like, "OK, here's where you can find food that you can eat," in a case where that would be a problem. "Here's where you can go to the bathroom," based on specific criteria. I would want that!
Jake:
I mean, I definitely have a list in my head of where the best bathrooms are.
Melinda Lewis:
If I'm imagining the Excel spreadsheet, what are the categories that you put as "this qualifies as a solid bathroom experience"?
Alaina:
I have in mind cleanliness...also newness. I appreciate a bathroom that feels newly renovated. [Everyone laughs.]
Jake:
Main is old---and it's clean enough---but the most important part about the Main bathroom is it has a view. OK, so, if you are done washing your hands, you're just in-between classes, you're having your day, you could just kind of go out on the little fire balcony that's out there. I really appreciate that, that you can just look out over campus, chilling there...nice breeze. First bathroom I ever had with a balcony. [Jake laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
So, aesthetic...points of ref[lection]...a place where you feel like you can reflect...
Jake:
Yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
...On what has happened here today...what has transpired. And maybe looking on toward the future.
Jake:
Mmm hmmm.
Melinda Lewis:
Is there anything else?
Alaina:
Emptiness.
Melinda Lewis:
Emptiness...
Alaina:
That's huge.
Melinda Lewis:
...Privacy.
Jake:
Like how many people are in there at once and also how...the flow of traffic. I feel like, when people come in and come out a lot, it's stressful. If there's going to be people in there, just chill...but when the door's opening and closing and there's flushing everywhere and there's people talking in between classes. I like a nice bathroom, where people understand this is a place to shut up and do your thing.
Audio Clips:
["Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery" audio clip plays. Music swells as grunting occurs in bathroom stall, while Austin Powers is attacked by a villain. Villain struggles to breath while upside-down with his head in the toilet bowl, while toilet water bubbles. Character in adjacent stall overhears and says, "Hey, that sounds pretty nasty. How about a courtesy flush over there?" Toilet flushes loudly, as villain takes his last breath.]
Melinda Lewis:
The other thing is about poop schedules. Do you have to schedule your life around your poop schedule?
Jake:
My poop kind of schedules me and I don't like it, but I feel like I'm just kind of at the whim of my poop. I can't really set a schedule, because it's just random.
Melinda Lewis:
Alaina?
Alaina:
My poop also schedules me for the most part. [Jake laughs.] I have a general idea of when I will need to go. But, for the most part, I think that it just happens when it happens. And I think, when you have less poop shame, I guess it matters less, so then you're not really scheduling your life around it in the same way...or you're not thinking about it in the same way. I know people who can't leave the house until they go, because they don't want to go anywhere else, which goes back to that "New York Times" article that you sent a long time ago...
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, yeah. [Jake laughs.]
Alaina:
...About how there's totally gender differences in poop shame.
Jake:
Yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
I think shame is a really important part of this conversation because, at one point, there's no shame and then, at some point, we gain shame.
Jake:
I feel like, for me, it was in my teens. Since I've been to college, my poop shame has really dropped off. But, in high school, it was very much like, "Can I go in this bathroom? Is there anybody here?" I would walk in, pretend to wash my hands, and leave, if somebody was in a bathroom and I was just not in the mood to poop in that bathroom with somebody else in there.
Audio Clips:
["Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle" audio clip plays. Woman in bathroom stall says, "Chrissy, are you still there?" Sudden flatulent, messy noises come from stall. Harold or Kumar shouts, "I can't take it anymore!" and they run out of the bathroom]
Alaina:
Your poop shame has progressed over the years.
Jake:
Yeah, it's totally...I have had an evolution in my poop shame.
Alaina:
Mine is about the same. At least, high school, I know that it existed. And then, I think, in college, it started to just be like, "OK, you know what? I can't think about this." I go in public restrooms all the time now because I'm in classes and in academic buildings all the time and I live in a dorm; and that's kind of public, too. So, there's no way to think about the shame all the time without feeling fatigued. So, it's time to move on. [Alaina laughs.].
Jake:
Yeah, I think it really depends your environment, too. As far as classes go, I don't have as much of a guard up around my classmates, I guess. Their opinion matters less, because they're not employing me. But, if I'm a co-op at somebody's company and I'm just ripping one in the stall next to the CEO or something, that's more concerning to me. You know? [Jake laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
So, there's so many things, because you've brought in essentially capitalism into the conversation in a way that I should have expected. [Jake laughs.] Who is enabling us to feel shame, when poop shame hits, right? Because it's not those who are maybe in our peers, but now it becomes the power...the power of defecation.
Audio Clips:
["Conan" audio clip plays. Conan O'Brien says, "Are you being serious? You don't defecate at work?" Producer Jordan Schlansky responds, "No." Conan reacts, "That's insane! That's crazy. How do you plan that out?" Jordan responds matter-of-factly, "My body follows a natural rhythm; it's almost circadian. I'm surprised that you are caught unaware so often." Audience laughs. "Do you defecate at work?" Conan says, "Jordan, all people eventually...first of all, I'm a celebrity and, as they will tell you, we just don't defecate at all." Other characters affirm, "No...no." Conan continues, "But you, as a person...everyone does." Jordan asks, "How many times a week would you say you defecate at work?" Conan responds, "Well, I think you're talking about a very...this is a disgusting topic." Jordan challenges, "Well, I didn't initiate the topic." Audience claps as Conan trails off with, "Would you evacuate your bowels..." and clip fades.]
Alaina:
[Alaina laughs.] Well, when you say capitalism, I didn't know where you were going with that. So, I was thinking that you might go in the direction of products like Poo-Pourri, for example.
Jake:
Mmm.
New Speaker:
But any air freshener that's supposed to be in a bathroom that's meant to mask the smell of your natural bowel movements.
Jake:
Although sometimes it smells a bit unholy, where you're like, "Is that natural?"
Alaina:
Yeah, no, it's not great. But just thinking about how that plays into shame.
Jake:
Yeah, we all smell like that. It's just we all want to pretend that you don't.
Audio Clips:
[Poo-Pourri commercial audio clip plays. Narrator says, "So, how do you make the world believe your poop doesn't stink or, in fact, that you never poop at all? Poo-Pourri!" Celestial music plays. "Poo-Pourri is the before-you-go toilet spray that is proven to trap those embarrassing odors at the source and save relationships." Cows moo in the distance as clip ends.]
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. Well and the pretense and those products' being built upon shame. Right? Of like, "We all know that you are ashamed and you definitely should be," but know there's all these industries built upon freshening stuff that is inherently unfresh. You are beautifying poop. That's a weird industry to be in.
Audio Clips:
[Charmin radio commercial audio clip plays. R&B/EDM jingle music plays with vocalist singing, "No ifs or ands, just cleaner butts. Charmin Ultra Strong...oh, yeah. Ultra Strong gives me that cleaner-than-average hiney...it's super shiny. My hiney's so Charmin shiny. My hiney's so Charmin shiny. My hiney's so Charmin shiny." Warped, climactic voice ends with, "My hiney" and echos.].
Melinda Lewis:
Do you have a toilet paper preference?
Alaina:
I feel like if you don't have a toilet paper preference, I don't trust you. Or you need to really do some reflection and then come back and talk about it because, by a certain point in your life, I feel you should have one. I don't want Scott; one-ply is not my thing. I want like two-ply, coarse toilet paper.
Audio Clips:
["Seinfeld" audio clip plays. Funky bass slides in. While in bathroom stall, Elaine says to a second woman in the adjacent stall, "I can't believe this. What a dope. Excuse me. I'm sorry. This is kind of embarrassing, but there's no toilet paper over here." Second woman says, "Are you talking to me?" Audience laughs. Elaine responds, "Yeah, I just forgot to check. So, if you could spare some." Second woman responds, "No, I'm sorry." Elaine continues, "Three squares? You can't spare three squares?" Second woman responds, "No, I don't have a square to spare! I can't spare a square!" Audience laughs. Elaine asks, "Well is it two-ply? Because if it's two-ply, I'll take one ply. One ply. One puny, little ply. I'll take one measly ply." Second woman replies angrily, "Look, I don't have a square and I don't have a ply!" She flushes and leaves the stall as Elaine responds, "No, no, don't go! I beg you!" Funky bass music fades.]
Jake:
I feel like my favorite toilet paper is whatever is the cheapest because, in my head, all toilet paper is exactly the same; it just depends on how many times you fold it. It's like, "Oh, no, you only have one-ply? Fold it; you have two-ply." I don't know why this is such an issue.
Alaina:
Yeah, I think we just take what we can get at this point in our lives. But, maybe when we move on to the next stage where we can actually have preferences of toilet paper, I would. I think I would at some point in my life. I don't think I'm there yet, though.
Audio Clips:
[Charmin radio commercial audio clip fades in and plays. R&B/EDM jingle music plays with vocalist singing, "Smiling ear to ear...this TP's magnifique. Charmin Ultra Soft's so cozy. I'm grinning cheek-to-cheek."]
Promo Segment (Speaker 1):
[Phone rings and voicemail message begins.] Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the Twitter or the Facebook? You know, like, if I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Promo Segment (Melinda Lewis):
[Tape whirling effect, followed by "Pop, the Question" instrumental theme music and Melinda Lewis.] 'Sup, Mom! Uh, yeah. So you can find us on all those things, actually: Twitter; Instagram; Facebook. Just go to "popquestpod" on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at "popqpodcast" or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. Alright, love you. Bye! [Promo segment theme music concludes with "Scooby-doo-bop!"]
Audio Clips:
["Friday" audio clip plays. Ice Cube's character says, "Where you at?," while father sprays air freshener and responds, "In the bathroom!"]
Melinda Lewis:
Speaking of toilet paper, you're putting the roll on the thing. Is the toilet paper over or under?
Alaina:
A hundred percent over.
Jake:
Yeah, if you put it under, you don't understand ergonomics of your own body. I have a very strong opinion on that one. It just doesn't make any sense to go under; it's just uncomfortable. Unless your toilet paper roll is above your head height when you're sitting down, there's no reason.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, I've never really understood the argument for under. It's, for me, over all the way.
Alaina:
Another thing that I wanted to ask you about Melinda is whether you roll, bunch, or fold your toilet paper, because that's a very important thing that I need to know.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm kind of "by any means necessary." So, I'm willing to try a variety of methods. I don't necessarily feel like I have a go-to.
Alaina:
I do a fold and a bit of a bunch, but mostly a fold.
Jake:
I'm a strict folder. I'm a big fan of the fold. At most, I'll take four squares. You fold it in half, do your thing, and then you can just keep folding it in different ways and it's just so efficient. I feel like---I don't know---the roll just feels very inefficient to me. You're not using all the surface area very effectively.
Alaina:
It depends on the ply of the toilet paper, too. I feel like that's something important to consider here.
Audio Clips:
["Charmin" TV commercial audio clip plays. Dad bear character says, "Oh, this is soft. This is so, so soft." Mom bear character calls from the other room, "Hey, hun. Remember, you only need a few sheets." Dad bear character reacts with, "Oop!"]
Melinda Lewis:
What are your thoughts on cell phones and pooping or like anything? Do you bring books in with you? [Alaina laughs.] People have some real strong feelings about bringing artifacts. Somebody told me, "My husband brings in a library book and I just like, 'You can't do that.'"
Jake:
Ooooh.
Alaina:
"You can't do that." [Alaina laughs.]
Jake:
I don't know. I'm fine if you bring your own personal things in the bathroom.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Jake:
But, in general, my mom's definitely disgusted by the fact that I use my phone on the toilet. But I'm bored! You want me to go back to reading the shampoo bottle?
Alaina:
Sometimes, I don't like to bring anything in with me and I want to just experience it. And I just feel very Zen about what's happening. And hopefully that will improve the experience. [Alaina laughs.].
Audio Clips:
[Poo-Pourri commercial audio plays. Upbeat R&B/EDM music plays and vocalists sing, "Imagine where you can go now. Oh, baby. Yeah, all the possibilities. How did I live before Poo-Pourri? Aw, it'll set you free. Just spritz the bowl and then you'll know. Imagine where you can go." Music suddenly stops.]
Melinda Lewis:
We've talked a little bit about home; we've talked a little bit about work. But, in terms of public restrooms, how do you operate within that space? Like on the street?
Alaina:
I think I used to do the move that Jake said he did in high school where, if someone was in the bathroom and I had to poop, I would either wait till they left or I would just pee and then move on with my life and hold it for later. I think that, since college, I've adapted, because public restrooms were ubiquitous. And I don't know if I've coined this term or not, but I started doing this thing that I started calling "poopspiration," which is the poop standoff that people have where two people in the bathroom and you know that the other person is totally waiting for you to either leave or start pooping. And you're usually in the poop standoff. You're both waiting for the other person.
Alaina:
I've started practicing "poopspiration," where I don't wait for them; I just start. And I've noticed that, if I just start and I know that that person's waiting for me to go, they'll start going! And it's this camaraderie of, "OK, I wasn't going to go. But, now that you're going, I feel like I can. I feel brave enough to go because we're both doing what we do as humans." So, I mean ,that's my biggest public restroom mantra...is like "poopspire" people as much as you can. [Alaina laughs.].
Jake:
Yeah, that's good.
Melinda Lewis:
You're walking, so others can run.
Jake:
Yeah, I feel like my only things are like...I've been to Europe once in my life. You got to pay to use the bathrooms in Italy. Public bathrooms are paid-only things. It just feels like a dystopian future. I don't know if you're a musical person, but there's a musical called "Urinetown," where the whole song's called "The Privilege to Pee." And there's the urine police that go around and, if you're peeing in a bathroom you didn't pay for or if you're peeing on the streets, they send you to Urinetown.
Audio Clips:
["Urinetown" audio clip from "The Privilege to Pee" plays. Vocalist sings over jaunty piano music, "I run the only toilet in this part of town, you see. So, if you gotta go, you got to go through me."]
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, I think the policing is a really interesting thing, because I don't know how you police bodily functions in that way. I mean, that just also points to a lot of other issues regarding those who are experiencing homelessness and what are you then supposed to do with your body, when those support systems are not there or when that infrastructure is not there? It's not even about shame; it then becomes a legal thing.
Jake:
Even in general, we just deny the fact that people have basic human functions like pooping.
Melinda Lewis:
Mmm hmmm.
Jake:
It's just a thing that you do and, for some reason, it's so taboo that it's illegal.
Audio Clips:
["Bridesmaids" audio clip plays. Bridal store owner asserts, "OK, nope, not the bathroom. Everybody go outside. I'm serious! There's a bathroom across the street!" Running footsteps and desparate gasps follow. One character says, "No, Megan. No...no!" Megan responds, "Look away!" Flatulent, messy sounds follow.]
Melinda Lewis:
So, there's this whole philosophical concept of abjection and this idea of ridding the bile in our bodies and the relief that comes from that. Right? And so, to think about poop as a shameful thing or as a bad thing as opposed to the relief of the pressure or the relief of something that should no longer be inside out. But I don't know when that twist ever happened or if it just was always a shameful entity. Maybe I'm saying I want a history of poop...and maybe that exists.
Alaina:
We were watching "Down to Earth with Zac Efron," where he does sustainability tourism. But, the one episode, they went to London. For a really, really long time, basically, as soon as it started becoming a city and becoming crowded, people would dump their poop out their window. What is it called? The bucket?
Jake:
The chamber pot!
Alaina:
The chamber pot.
Jake:
Chamber pot.
Alaina:
Yeah! You'd use the chamber pot and then you'd throw it out the window and it just sits on the street and then it ends up in the river.
Audio Clips:
["Down to Earth with Zac Efron" audio clip plays. Efron narrates, "We're in Europe in a highly populated area that was once overcome by pollution. Our mission is to learn how the city overcame lethal levels of smog and deadly river waters." Clip fades.]
Alaina:
It was Cholera City, so to talk about it as something that we see as so taboo now, I don't know. I wonder if maybe it started around the time that plumbing became more modernized and we started not having to see it anymore.
Audio Clips:
["SpongeBob SquarePants" audio clip plays." Airpline noises swell as airplane dives, followed by a pilot character shouting, "Dude, we're falling right out of the sky! We gotta drop the load!" Beeps, airplane noises, and other sound effects abound as clip fades.]
Alaina:
I feel like we need to work on destigmatizing it and understanding that it's normal to poop. And to talk about your poop is also pretty normal. I feel like we should all take a note out of a book of doctors; when you go to the doctor and they ask you how your poop is, you just talk about it. I wish parents talked more with their kids about poop and normalized those conversations.
Jake:
Everybody does it. You know? Don't be too concerned about it.
Melinda Lewis:
Those are both beautiful messages. But that's the thing is...children have no shame, because it's not stigmatized yet. So, at some point, it becomes stigmatized in some form or fashion, right? And I think, to Alaina's point about plumbing, that we've ascribed, "This is the appropriate time. This is the appropriate place." As opposed to listening to our body, we've created all of these conditions. I mean, by the time...I'm 35, so it's kind of too late for me. [Melinda laughs.]
Alaina:
It's never too late.
Melinda Lewis:
It's never too late. You know what? I have learned a lot during this conversation, so I'm going to be thinking a lot more about who I am as a person and about my bathroom practices. And I'll be thinking of this meeting and I'll be thinking of you two.
Alaina:
It means a lot that you'll be thinking of us on the toilet. [Melinda laughs.] That's huge.
Jake:
Yeah, that's important to me.
Melinda Lewis:
You know what? Soon, I'm not going to bring in my phone. I'm just going to sit and really think about what we talked about today. [Theme music fades in.] I really do hope that you create that list of poop places. And I really do hope that you become the major poop advocates that we really need right now.
Alaina:
Thank you for giving us a poop platform!
Jake:
Yeah, for sure.
Closing Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky theme music plays.].
Theme Outro (Melinda Lewis):
"Pop, the Question" was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Eric Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. [Theme music continues with "Pop, the Question!" vocals and a Wilhelm scream].
Closing Theme Music (Speaker 1):
["Pop, the Question" theme music continues with Allen Iverson speaking at a press conference.] I know it's important. I do; I honestly do. But we talking about practice, man. What're we talking about? Practice?! We talking about practice, man. [Music fades.]