Pop, the Question (S4: E30)
Musicals!
Featured Guest Gail D. Rosen, JD (Associate Teaching Professor, Department of English & Philosophy, College of Arts and Sciences, Drexel University)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College)
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Assistant Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Graphic Design Nina Pagano
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded September 30, 2020 through virtual conferencing. Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. Copyright © 2021 Drexel University
Episode Summary
Everybody loves a good musical! They’re full of life, movement, poetry, social commentary, and, of course, plenty of song. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis joins the chorus line with Drexel University Associate Teaching Professor Gail D. Rosen, a life-long devotee of musicals, to discuss the best (and worst) in stage production and screen adaptation, as well as the power, memory, and future of the great musical.
Transcript:
Opening Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky "Pop, the Question" theme music plays with audio clips, featuring Oprah Winfrey and "The Golden Girls."].
Theme Intro (Melinda Lewis):
Welcome to "Pop, the Question," a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm here with Gail Rosen, Teaching Professor of English at Drexel University and we're going to be talking about musicals!
Gail D. Rosen:
Yay!
Melinda Lewis:
I tried to do my best belting. I'm no Ethel Merman, but....
Audio Clips:
["There's No Business Like Show Business" audio clip plays. Over powerful orchestral music, Ethel Merman belts out, "Let's go on with the show!"]
Melinda Lewis:
Let's get down to it. So, do you remember the first musical where you were like, "Oh, this is for me"?
Gail D. Rosen:
Yes! The very first time was when some classmates and I, in 8th grade, tried to arrange a trip to Broadway, which would never happen now in this way. This wonderful young teacher somehow took just four of us during the summer. Our parents said, "Yes." We took the train to Trenton and then the train to New York and we had tickets to "Pippin."
Melinda Lewis:
Whoa!
Gail D. Rosen:
I know. It wasn't the original cast, but I didn't care. [Melinda laughs.] And we were sitting there and I remember we walked around New York. It was the best day. But just hearing the music.... And I remember one of my friends really wanted to be an actor and he was just staring at the stage saying, "I wish I could be up there." But I was thinking, "I just want to be right here." I just thought this was the best thing in the world. "I have to have this feeling again."
Gail D. Rosen:
It's something about your first musical. You just...you fall in love and you never forget it. It doesn't matter if it was the best musical ever. It was your first.
Audio Clips:
["Glory" (from "Pippin" live performance) audio clip plays. Over powerful music, chorus sings, "Glory! Glory! " Upbeat orchestral music follows and audience applauds.]
Melinda Lewis:
I grew up watching musicals on a VHS tape. The two I remember have also made me question a lot about my childhood. [Gail laughs.] "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" and then "Gigi." The narrative is also really weird and problematic.
Gail D. Rosen:
But it's so funny, because I had some of those same experiences like "South Pacific," the musical. The movie is a whole different thing. But "Gigi," I felt the same way. And then, as an adult, "Thank Heaven for Little Girls," and no one's objecting?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. Nobody has any questions.
Gail D. Rosen:
It's like, "Oh, my God!"
Audio Clips:
["Thank Heaven for Little Girls" (from "Gigi") audio clip plays. Vocalist sings, "Thank heaven for little girls. They grow up in the most delightful way." Chipper music and vocals fade out.]
Melinda Lewis:
I don't really know what the significance of "Gigi" is, except maybe I shouldn't groom girls into becoming my courtesans, which I guess is a good message. But, other than that, I'm not necessarily sure.
Gail D. Rosen:
Yeah, that's a musical people go, "Oh, God, 'Gigi.'" People that like musicals sit here and "Ugh!" [Laughter.]
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, yeah.
Gail D. Rosen:
It somehow never comes up in a course about musicals or a series about important musicals. They never mention "Gigi," although maybe they should for these very awful reasons.
Melinda Lewis:
And, I mean, I guess musicals help work through these concepts and ideas.
Gail D. Rosen:
Yeah and one of my students said, "You know, there's a lot of musicals that have Nazis in them." [Laughter.] I hadn't actually thought about it like that, like "Sound of Music," "The Producers," "Cabaret." I'm like, "I guess so." It's very interesting. [Laughter.]
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah and how these musicals are responding to the current politics, as well as articulating the historical period in some form or fashion.
Gail D. Rosen:
Well, certainly, yeah, especially with "Hamilton." That's where you start to see people sort of reacting. I always play for my students the clip of Mike Pence attending the performance with some of his family members. The cast was so upset that they...back stage, they were like, "We have to say something at the end. We have to."
Melinda Lewis:
Everything to the core of that musical is political.
Gail D. Rosen:
Right.
Melinda Lewis:
It is literally about politics. You can't be like, "Stop being political!"
Audio Clips:
[Actor from "Hamilton: An America Music" speaks to Vice President Mike Pence from the stage: "But we truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us." Audience cheers and applauds, before fading out.]
Melinda Lewis:
So you go from being a kid and a teenager loving this experience. By that time, were you already consumed with the archive or did that just launch you into consuming musicals at a different degree?
Gail D. Rosen:
I couldn't sing or dance or anything like that, sadly [Melinda laughs], but I always had friends who were in musicals. So, I was always the person like, "Yeah, I'll see your high school play. Oh, sure. You want to see this show?" So, it sort of became this thing where I always tried to find people who liked that, who would do that for me, whether it was community theater or local theater in Philadelphia. And, of course, New York is still expensive but, when I could, I would always go to New York.
Gail D. Rosen:
And my parents always liked that kind of thing. My parents were the kind of people who had seen a lot of original Broadway cast in a time when it was much more affordable. They both saw Ethel Merman in "Gypsy"...every famous person. Like, "Oh, yeah, I saw Barbra Streisand in this musical." And, yes, they saw everything with some of the original cast, when you could do that in Philadelphia.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah and I think it maps on then, maybe, to the rise and fall of Broadway as a cultural hub.
Gail D. Rosen:
There's a really great PBS series. It's like six parts on...all about the American Broadway musical from pretty early on in the '30s to some point in the 21st Century. But I think there was always that. I think that it kind of ebbs and flows. One of the things that happened with, say, "Pippin" in the '70s was they started doing television advertising. And "Pippin" wasn't doing that well, but they had this great commercial with some of those Fosse dance moves and it really turned things around for "Pippin" and people started to see it.
Gail D. Rosen:
Then there was the whole cleaning up Times Square and making it very Disneyfied and having a lot of these Disney musicals and Andrew Lloyd Webber. And It became a whole different thing. "Wicked" became a musical that I think really made money and started to turn things around.
Audio Clips:
["Defying Gravity" (from "Wicked") audio clip plays. Over a piano and then a pounding drum beat, vocal duet sings, "There's no fight we cannot win. Just you and I, defying gravity. With you and I, defying gravity, they'll never bring us down." As music recedes, one vocalist speaks, "Well, are you coming?"]
Melinda Lewis:
In thinking about the shows that you've gone to the half-price counter, was there a show that you went to that you didn't know anything about or you kind of knew something about and just blew you away?
Gail D. Rosen:
Yes. I always had this thing where---and it's this weird point of pride---I will never pay full price for Broadway. [Both laugh.] I will find.... I'm on a zillion discount email lists. So, this is one I really resisted seeing. One of the musicals that had been up there was "SpongeBob," the musical.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah!
Gail D. Rosen:
And I never really even watched the cartoon. I was like, "Absolutely not! There is no way I'm seeing this." [Both laugh.] But I absolutely loved it. And I was so surprised in so many ways of what was good about it.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, was it the music? Was it the spectacle? Was it?.... Because I remember reading "The New York Times" and I had no idea and they were like, "Buckle up! This is great." Then I found out who was writing the songs and seeing that it was John Legend...
Gail D. Rosen:
All these...yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
And all these amazing... [crosstalk at 00:07:42].
Gail D. Rosen:
Bowie, yes! It was just fun. It was a lot of fun.
Audio Clips:
["No Control" (from "SpongeBob SquarePants") audio clip plays. Vocalist yelps and, over a pulsing hard rock beat, belts out, "No control! I can't believe I've no control!" Simultaneously, a vocal group chants, "The end is coming!"]
Gail D. Rosen:
But then, "Hamilton," I had my eye on. I was a big Lin-Manuel Miranda fan and I had loved "In the Heights" and I'd even.... I liked his work so much that I even saw this other musical he was involved in that no one talks about called "Bring It On," which is this cheerleading musical that he wrote a few songs for. And I remember walking out of that and saying, "He needs to do something better." So, when I'd heard about "Hamilton," I was like, "Alright, I'm not missing this."
Audio Clips:
["My Shot" (from "Hamilton: An American Musical") audio clip plays. Lin-Manuel Miranda raps, "I promise that I'll make you all proud." Another vocalist says, "Let's get this guy in front of a crowd." A chorus then chimes over pulsing rock music, "I am not throwing away my shot. I am not throwing away my shot. Hey, yo, I'm just like my country. I'm young, scrappy, and hungry and I'm not throwing away my shot." Music and vocals fade out.]
Melinda Lewis:
I think this is so interesting, because I think that, on one hand, Broadway has a fandom. I remember being in high school and there were kids who would wear "Cats" T-shirts, "Rent" T-shirts, and "Les Mis" T-shirts and you were like, "You're the theater kids. You love Broadway. You're dedicated. You have all the cast recordings. You're a big Alan Cummings fan. I get it." But, to think about the labor, I think about the work that's being done in fan studies or Henry Jenkins' talking about the labor of fandom and doing what you've done of having the knowledge and that being a sort of capital; knowing ahead of time that this Lin-Manuel Miranda kid is going to be something.
Gail D. Rosen:
He's going to be something. [Laughter.]
Melinda Lewis:
Right? Knowing how to work the system to get the pricing that you want, knowing how to snap up tickets, knowing how Broadway works. And I don't know if we really talk about Broadway fandom in that way.
Audio Clips:
["The Schuyler Sisters" (from "Hamilton: An American Musical") audio clip plays. Chorus shouts, "Work!" Vocalist 1 sings, "It's bad enough Daddy wants to go to war." Music lowers under discussion.]
Gail D. Rosen:
That's a really good point. Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. I think it's like being a fan of everything. There is a lot of work, but I think it's when you like something and it's like anything, it's sort of fun. You're reading about it. It doesn't seem like work, but that's a good point. Yes.
Audio Clips:
["The Schuyler Sisters" (from "Hamilton: An American Musical") audio clip continues. Vocalist 2 sings on repeat, "Eliza, I'm looking for a mind at work." Chorus shouts refrain of "Work! Work!" under Vocalist 2. Lin-Manuel Miranda ends with, "Whew!"]
Promo Segment (Speaker 1):
[Phone rings and voicemail message begins.] Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the Twitter or the Facebook? You know, like, if I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Promo Segment (Melinda Lewis):
[Tape whirling effect, followed by "Pop, the Question" instrumental theme music and Melinda Lewis.] 'Sup, Mom! Uh, yeah. So you can find us on all those things, actually: Twitter; Instagram; Facebook. Just go to "popquestpod" on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at "popqpodcast" or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. Alright, love you. Bye! [Promo segment theme music concludes with "Scooby-doo-bop!"].
Audio Clips:
["In the Heights" (from "In the Heights") audio clip plays. Lin-Manuel Miranda rap leads into chorus: "In the Heights, I've lit the lights and start my day. There are fights, endless dance, and bills to pay. In the Heights, I can't survive without café." Lin-Manuel Miranda chimes in with, "I serve café!" as music and vocals fade out.]
Melinda Lewis:
So I think this is a good time to bring up, also, adaptations because, on one hand, those bring these traditional musicals into a more democratic space of going to the movies and watching these play out. And you have ones that are very successful. I did not realize "Les Mis" was all singing, when I first saw it. So I was very confused as an audience member. And I turned to my friend and was like, "Is Russell Crowe doing what he's supposed to be doing and just nobody told him?" And they were like, "Yeah, no, it's all singing."
Gail D. Rosen:
Yeah, oh, pet peeve there! [Laughter.]
Melinda Lewis:
So, yeah.
Audio Clips:
["Look Down" (from "Les Miserables" film adaptation) audio clip plays. Russell crow sings intermittently, "And I'm Javert! Do not forget my name! Do not forget me! 24601." Chorus chants as music and vocals fade out.]
Gail D. Rosen:
I think if you're a really good actor and you can't sing, there are things you could do to fake it. In the movie "A Marriage Story" with Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson, there's a scene where Adam Driver gets up and he sings this song from Sondheim's "Company," which is about marriage. And Adam Driver commits to it and he shows an understanding of what the song's about. And it's so good somehow. It might not be good if you were listening to it without watching it, but I'm like, "OK, this kind of works for me."
Audio Clips:
["Being Alive" (from "Company," adaptated for "A Marriage Story") audio clip plays. Adam Driver sings mournfully and pensively over piano music, "Somebody hold me too close. Somebody hurt me too deep. Somebody sit in my chair and ruin my sleep and make me aware of being alive. Being alive. Somebody need me too much. Somebody know me too well." Vocals and piano music fade out.]
Melinda Lewis:
And Hollywood has always tried to capture what is Broadway. I mean, It's an easy adaptation. But, recently, they seem to have leaned in real hard to musicals.
Gail D. Rosen:
The problem with adaptations is there's always somebody going to say like, "Oh, my God! That's not.... That didn't happen that...." You can't expect an adaptation to be the same. So, I try to think, "Well, it's a movie. You have to do something different." I think, in some ways, the movie "West Side Story" has some advantages over the actual original theatrical production.
Audio Clips:
["America" (from "West Side Story") audio clip plays. Vocalist sings, "Life can be bright in America!" Chorus 1 responds, "If you can fight in America!" Chorus 2 responds, "Life is alright in America!" Chorus 1 responds, "If you're all White in America!" Calls and music fade.]
Gail D. Rosen:
Same thing with the movie version of "Cabaret." I think it made a leap and it changed things and it was better. "Into the Woods" is a favorite musical of mine. So, they really had to do violence to some of the things that happened. And the same thing with "Sweeney Todd."
Melinda Lewis:
What about other adaptations? I don't think we can leave this conversation without talking about "Cats." I don't know if we can avoid it.
Gail D. Rosen:
I never liked "Cats" to begin with. [Laughter.] That was.... I actually think I did see that on Broadway.
Audio Clips:
["Memory" (from "Cats") audio clip plays. Solo vocalist sings mournfully and pensively, "Memory, all alone in the moonlight. I can smile at the old days. I was beautiful then." Vocals and music fades out.]
Gail D. Rosen:
I'm not a big Andrew Lloyd Webber fan. I don't like "Cats" and I don't like "Phantom of the Opera," although I like "Phantom of the Opera" better than "Cats." In terms of his work, I would like "Evita" and I like "Joseph" better. I have the same problem with "Fiddler on the Roof." It's really slow and long. First of all, this idea that it has to be as long as it was [laughter] live is strange. I feel that way about everything like, "Does it really need to be this long?" That's just my general rule, like for papers. Does it? If it does, OK, but does it really?
Melinda Lewis:
[Laughter] And the reason I bring this up was that, when I was in high school, there were kids who really were advocating for "Newsies." I don't know what kids in my generation loved about "Newsies" so much.
Gail D. Rosen:
They still do!
Melinda Lewis:
Still do! And I never.... I watched it way too late, I think, because I was like, "I don't really get it, gang." But "Newsies...." They kept advocating and advocating and the teacher was like, "'Newsies' is not a musical. It's a movie with music numbers, but it's not a musical." And she was really defining the difference between stage and film. And I feel like you might be on her side.
Gail D. Rosen:
Right. I am totally on her side. I am. [Both laugh.] Only because it's just a different thing. And there are people that love those older MGM kind of movie musicals. What I couldn't get past is that they kept referring to the newspapers...they called them "papes." [Laughter.].
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Gail D. Rosen:
And I just found that really funny so that, now---my husband and I---it's like, "Have you read the papes?" [Both laugh.] It's interesting that there's something weird about "Newsies" and I'm trying to understand.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. Well, I think it might be because it's a movie that's trying to capture a Broadway vibe, but it doesn't.... I just don't believe that you did your research on papes. [Gail laughs.]
Audio Clips (Speaker 1):
["Newsies" audio clip plays.] So what? You get your picture in the papes. So what's that get you? Huh?
Audio Clips (Speaker 2):
Hey, what're you talking about, huh?
Audio Clips (Speaker 3):
Shut up, Ronnie! You've just been in a bad mood all day!
Audio Clips (Speaker 2):
I'm not in a bad mood.
Audio Clips (Speaker 4):
Glum and dumb, what's the matter with you? You're in the papes, you're famous! You're famous, you get anything you want. And that's what's so great about New York!
Audio Clips:
["King of New York" (from "Newsies" original film") audio clip continues. As music fades, vocalist starts, "A pair of new shoes with matching laces."]
Gail D. Rosen:
Funny that you should bring up "Newsies." There is a weird thing about "Newsies." They actually made a musical of "Newsies."
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Gail D. Rosen:
And then they filmed the musical. So it's not a film, but it's a film of the musical. There are a lot of filmed live productions of things. And, while it's not the same as being there, you do get kind of a different view. And I do enjoy watching some of the filmed stage productions. You can feel like you're in the front row. [Laughter.]
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, that collective experience of theater that can be so vital and important to understanding how we are connecting with other people.
Gail D. Rosen:
Yeah, I mean, seeing actual human beings on stage and they're actual...they're playing. They're actors, but they're here with you in this moment. And I'm just reading an article, actually, about what a lot of the New York actors are doing during the pandemic and how people that were in shows and now they're not, they have to find other ways to make a living. And kids that were cast in roles and know that, whenever it comes back, they're already too old to play those parts. It's just kind of heartbreaking.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Gail D. Rosen:
I think about that a lot because that's a lament. I'm like, "Will I ever see theater again? Will there ever be theater again?" It's hard to imagine that, but there's so much that we've had to sort of give up, obviously. I think, not just musicals, but any kind of theater, that's...though...if they find a way to do sports, I guess, they could go back to the outdoor theaters. I don't know. I think you're really going to have to reconfigure it.
Gail D. Rosen:
So I hope there'll be some kind of adjustment. I hope there'll be theater again. But I hope...I think for theater to come back, a lot of things will have to come back.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. So, yeah, controlled optimism, right?
Gail D. Rosen:
Yes. Controlled.... We want to be optimistic.
Audio Clips:
["Don't Rain on My Parade" (from "Funny Girl") audio clip plays. Barbra Streisand sings, "Don't tell me not to live, just sit and putter. Life's candy and the sun's a ball of butter. Don't bring around a cloud. Don't rain on my parade!" Explosive orchestral music chimes in. Barbra Streisand continues, "Don't tell me not to fly" as music and vocals fade out.]
Melinda Lewis:
If you had one musical to show somebody who hadn't watched a musical before, do you have one in mind that you'd be like, "OK, so here's a musical."
Gail D. Rosen:
If they like more avant garde or some people really like traditional stuff, "Music Man" with Robert Preston...not bad. For people that like dancing, I'd pick a more dancy one. For people that think musicals are too frivolous, I'd pick something more serious. For something else, I'd want to go to a filmed theatrical production, something like "Into the Woods" or "Company" or "Sunday in the Park with George," depending on what people like. Because people were forced to watch "The Sound of Music" as a kid with Julie Andrews, so they have this thing.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Gail D. Rosen:
But, if you go back and watch it now, you see, man, there's amazing songs in that.
Audio Clips:
["Do-Re-Mi" (from "The Sound of Music") audio clip plays. Julie Andrews sings, along with a choir of children, "So, a needle pulling thread. La, a note to follow so. Ti, a drink with jam and bread. That will bring us back to do." Julie Andrews closes out with, "Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do-so-do!"]
Gail D. Rosen:
And there's so many great musicals and there really is something for everyone's taste. And, if you continue to explore them, you will find something you love. I guarantee you.
Melinda Lewis:
Well, this has been really enlightening, Gail. Thanks so much for hanging out and talking musicals with me.
Gail D. Rosen:
I love it. I'll talk to musicals to anybody, anytime. [Both laugh.].
Closing Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky theme music plays.]
Theme Outro (Melinda Lewis):
"Pop, the Question" was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Eric Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. [Theme music continues with "Pop, the Question!" vocals and a Wilhelm scream].
Closing Theme Music (Speaker 1):
["Pop, the Question" theme music continues with Allen Iverson speaking at a press conference.] I know it's important. I do; I honestly do. But we talking about practice, man. What're we talking about? Practice?! We talking about practice, man. [Music fades.]