Pop, the Question (S5: E39)
The Undertaker and Wrestling Over Time
Featured Guest Subir Sahu, PhD (Senior Vice President for Student Success, Enrollment Management & Student Success, Drexel University)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College)
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Assistant Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Graphic Design Camille Velasquez
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded January 21, 2022 through virtual conferencing.
Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University.
The views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of Drexel University or Pennoni Honors College.
Copyright © 2022 Drexel University
Episode Summary
Professional wrestling encapsulates so much of what’s popular in the greater culture: dynamic characters; athleticism; narrative conflict; and riveting performance. For decades in the media spotlight, wrestling has maintained a stronghold on audiences with the likes of Hulk Hogan, André the Giant, Rick Flair, Dusty Rhodes, The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and The Undertaker. However, as the profession changes, so do the players with the passing of time and their own aging in the face of mortality. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis gets in the ring with Drexel University student services pro and lifelong wrestling fan Dr. Subir Sahu for a match for the ages. The tag team takes on wrestling’s powerful place in pop culture with a special focus on The Undertaker’s trajectory from Mean Mark Callous to a masterful icon of the sport.
TRANSCRIPT
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Speaker 1:
You get a car! You get a car! You get a car! (singing)
Melinda Lewis:
Welcome to Pop the Question, a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We
sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do, and who we are. From
Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here, I'm your host.
Melinda Lewis:
I am here with Subir Sahu, Senior Vice President for Student Success here at Drexel University, and
Intercontinental Champion of Student Success.
Subir Sahu:
I would hope I'd be World Champion. I mean, not just Intercontinental Champion, but person who cried
when Andre the Giant was attacked on Saturday Nights Main Event in the mid 80s.
Speaker 4:
[inaudible 00:01:03] Andre the Giant being kicked in the back! Double team effort now! Turn the
cameras away. This is the cracked sternum he suffered several months ago. [inaudible 00:01:12]
Melinda Lewis:
And you know, like everybody, he's just trying to get through these hard times and we're here to talk
about wrestling, specifically, The Undertaker, and everything in between. So thanks for hanging out with
me Subir.
Subir Sahu:
Well, thank you. I'm excited.
Melinda Lewis:
I've wanted to talk about wrestling for such a long time, because I don't want to say everything is
wrestling, but everything is wrestling. So I'm like, let's start with wrestling in general. When did your
eyes light up with amusement and delight?
Subir Sahu:
I can honestly say this. I don't remember any time in my life where wrestling wasn't somehow a part of
it. Even going back to before I was born. So I'm the youngest of three, and I'm the son of immigrant
parents who immigrated here to the United States from India. When my older brother was born, that
was the mid 70s, they at the time lived in North Carolina. My father was post-doc at Duke University.
And the Mid-Atlantic Wrestling, National Wrestling Alliance in the Carolinas at that time was a huge,
huge thing. And I'm not sure how or why, but my father really got into it. And so I kind of came along
with it and I really got into the Rocky movie series, and Rocky 3 came out when I was a young child and
Hulk Hogan was in Rocky 3.
Speaker 5:
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All right, you guys, you know, this is for fun, so take it easy and give him a good show.
Speaker 6:
Listen, after the match, how about we get a Polaroid together, okay?
Speaker 7:
You're in trouble now.
Speaker 8:
He got me mad. I'm going to break him in half like this.
Speaker 9:
Come on, Rocky, you can take him!
Speaker 6:
Seems like lately everybody wants to beat me up.
Speaker 10:
Give me a break, even my mama can beat you.
Speaker 11:
Stay awake, make faces, move around the ring.
Subir Sahu:
You know, I think I also got caught up in that whole rock and wrestling, MTV WWF connection, Hulk
Hogan, because of his connection to Rocky, and then just [inaudible 00:02:54] And you know, my
interest in the product, the current product has kind of ebbed and flowed. There was a little bit of a
timeframe probably when I was in middle school where I didn't watch as much. And then it picked right
back up in the 90s with the Monday Night Wars. And as I've gotten older, my interest has kind of gone
up and down, but I got very caught up in the world that is professional wrestling. I think it represented a
lot of things about society. I think what was, or is professional wrestling has played out in the real world,
in United States politics, for sure. Fast forward to today. I just always thought it would be an interesting
topic to talk about in an academic setting.
Melinda Lewis:
Yes, you did a course specifically about Undertaker. So why Undertaker?
Subir Sahu:
So I wanted to do something in the world of sports just like I did before. And my initial thought was
actually to design a course around Brett Favre and the challenges he had as he got to the end of his
career and really struggled to transition from professional football to life post football. And I kept
thinking about The Last Ride, which was the five part documentary on the Undertaker that I loved
watching. I thought it was a powerful story that wasn't necessarily about the Undertaker. It was about
this man, Mark Calaway, who had spent the better part of his adult life playing this larger than life
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character who was invincible and his struggle to walk away from that and walk off "into the sunset,"
what that meant and the search of the perfect ending.
Mark Calaway:
Here I am, you know, at this late point in my career, and I'm wondering, am I going to be able to hang
with this young guy? That's a huge challenge to only work once a year and to try to have timing, cardio,
have your gimmick. I mean, it's tough, but it's my reality. I mean, that's where I'm at. At this point in my
career, I can't work a full schedule. There, I said it.
Subir Sahu:
I just kept thinking about it, how I thought that was a perfect encapsulation of not only aging in our
society, but how masculinity is defined, how those things play out in the world of professional wrestling.
And that's kind of how it evolved. And the interesting thing is I am a fan of the Undertaker, but I
certainly wouldn't put him at the top of the list of professional wrestlers that I love.
Melinda Lewis:
Hot take, hot take, Subir.
Subir Sahu:
Honestly, truly. It was really about his struggle. And, you know, ironically, I got more into the Undertaker
character at the end because I thought they opened the door a little bit to he wasn't just a character. He
was the man, Mark Calaway, playing this character. And, and then I got more into the backstory.
Melinda Lewis:
There are a lot of great wrestlers. And I can't take it when people do their like top fives or whatever. I
think the conversation is the Mount Rushmore of wrestling. And I know like the Rock exists and Stone
Cold exists and they are iconic. Like the Rock is a super star, Fast and Furious. But as a wrestler who
would be more iconic than the Undertaker as a figure
Ted Dibiase:
Weighing in at 320 pounds from Death Valley, I give you the Undertaker.
Speaker 14:
The Undertaker, the mystery partner is now revealed.
Speaker 15:
I never heard of the- Holy cow. Look at the size of that ham hock. Check out them drum sticks, baby.
Speaker 14:
320 pounds, looks to be 6'9", 6'10", 7" in that neighborhood. 6'10". I don't know, it's hard to tell from
here. Holy cow.
Subir Sahu:
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To me and me personally, the iconic figure in professional wrestling who represents the genre, who was
this larger than life personality, but was gritty and that you could connect with was Ric Flair.
Melinda Lewis:
And I'm a Dusty fan. So we are at odds forever.
Subir Sahu:
It's funny you mentioned Dusty because I think when you think about feuds, the Dusty Rhodes, Ric Flair
rivalry is the perfect representation of professional wrestling. The rich, well to-do, cheat to win versus
the every man, working class, for the people and different styles, different body types, different
interviews, you know,? They just meshed so well.
Dusty Rhodes:
Ric Flair, the World's Heavyweight Champion. I don't have to say a lot more about the way I feel about
Ric Flair. No respect, no honor. There is no honor among these in the first place, he put hard times on
Dusty Rhodes and his family. You don't know what hard times are, daddy. Hard times are when the
textile workers around this country are out of work, they got four or five kids and can't pay their wages.
Can't by their food. Hard times [crosstalk 00:07:41]
Subir Sahu:
And as it connects back, you know, full circle to the Undertaker, I think candidly, that's part of the
reason I never got into the character because it was just that, a character. And that's not to say Ric Flair,
Dusty Rhodes weren't characters, but they felt real. You don't see someone walking down the street and
say, "Oh my gosh, that's the Undertaker." But you can say that about Dusty Rhodes. And those are the
pieces that for me, the iconic figures are those like a Ric Flair or Dusty Rhodes.
Melinda Lewis:
Did you ever see anything of Mark Calaway's before Undertaker?
Subir Sahu:
I sure did. Yeah. I remember him well before the Undertaker. He was Mean Mark Callous in WCW. I
remember he was on the Skyscrapers. He replaced Sid Vicious when Sid Vicious left, I believe, for the
WWF and teamed with Dan Spivey. Then he was a singles competitor. I remember he wrestled Lex Luger
in the Great American Bash, 1990. So actually when he came to the WWF in November of that year, I
was like, "Oh, that's, Mean Mark Callous." I'm much younger. So I wasn't thinking, oh, they repackaged
this guy and he's this new guy. I just thought, oh, that's Mean Mark Callous who's now playing this dead
person.
Mark Calaway:
That, my friend is the way to become immortal. Rest in peace.
Melinda Lewis:
I know that it's gimmicks and finding your gimmick. But I think that he's also very emblematic of trying
to find yourself in this industry specifically, but also I think wrestling is very cool in the sense that you
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can see people formulating their identity before you, and have their identity shift. And even like the
Undertaker coming out with a big bike and no longer wearing a hat and a cloak.
Subir Sahu:
I completely agree with you know, and to some degree we all do that. We all play a gimmick. We all play
a role, put on a suit, come to work, find our identity. We find success when we can kind of find that
world where kind of your work life and your personal life are well connected. I think mark Calaway
found success, because he stopped trying to figure out, hey, I got to do this in the ring, and found his
own identity. And I think it's cool to see his progression as a character and as an individual. And, and I
think that was what made his character special, because he was different. I mean, going back to what
we were talking about with Dusty Rhodes, Dusty Rhodes was all about the interview and would talk you
into the arena. Undertaker was so different and Undertaker started as a heel, you know, but people, I
think rally around what you were talking about, which turned him to a baby face and I think is where he
spent most of his career. He portrayed so much without saying anything at all.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, what is that song? You say it best when you say nothing at all, right. That should have been the
Undertaker's.
Subir Sahu:
Yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
You have the farewell tour to this beautiful ballad.
Subir Sahu:
Yeah. (singing) Something tells me he wouldn't have been as successful in wrestling.
Speaker 17:
Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the
Twitter or the Facebook? If I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Melinda Lewis:
Step mom, yeah. So you can find us on all those things, actually. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, just go to
PopQuestPod on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our
website and leave us a message at PopQPodcast. Or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You
can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have
to promise me to rate and review. All right. Love you. Bye.
Melinda Lewis:
What, for you, is the thing that is compelling to you about wrestling? Is it the narrative? Is it the
performance? Is it the costumes?
Subir Sahu:
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I just think when done right there is nothing better than a really good wrestling storyline that is about a
conflict between two characters that has verbal and physical parts of the conflict that ends with some
sort of struggle in the ring with a clear victor, whether that's in one match or series of matches. I just
love that. You know, and Wrestlemania 28 is a great example of the story that led to the Rock versus
John Cena. I got super into. At that point, I'm an adult. I know this is all acting. It's fake, whatever you
want to call it, but you get into it because you could tell that these were two guys who felt like they
were top of their game and they were better than the other one. And so there was an element of reality
in what they were saying to each other. The story too, but really the match. The Hell in a Cell between
the Undertaker and Triple H, the way they incorporated elements of their careers and Shawn Michaels
as the guest referee. And that point where Shawn Michaels super kicked the Undertaker, you thought
Triple H was going to end the streak.
J.R.:
No, no, no, no.
Jerry Lawler:
What?
J.R.:
Oh, my God. The lone referee was [00:13:26] broken in half by the Undertaker's choke slam.
Michael Cole:
Frustration, desperation.
J.R.:
It looks like we've driven on the scene of a car accident. There's bodies everywhere.
Jerry Lawler:
This is absolutely amazing here.
Subir Sahu:
I can recall all of those moments because they just capture you, no different than if you're watching a
movie or television show that really, you just can remember all the points because it taps into
something.
Melinda Lewis:
For me, it's also about seeing people do things that I can't do. So much of this reminds me of watching a
magic show where I'm like, "I know that it's an illusion and slight of hand and all that stuff, but I also
can't do any of this stuff."
Subir Sahu:
I was a nerdy Indian kid growing up. And so there was something cool about seeing these larger than life
wrestlers who said how they felt and what they were going to do. And it almost in good and bad ways
gave me something to kind of be like, "Gosh, I wish I had." You know, we talked about this in the course
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when we started talking about the genre of professional wrestling and its connectivity to some other
forms of entertainment. They started to see it as a performance, you know, and there's beauty in the
performance and that was cool to see. It was fun to bring some of that into the academic forum and talk
to students about characters and performance and aging and masculinity in this world.
J.R.:
[inaudible 00:14:55]
Crowd:
One, two, three.
J.R.:
We've got a new champion. We've got a new champion.
Speaker 22:
The winner of this match, and new All Elite Wrestling World Champion...
Melinda Lewis:
Every time I've heard wrestlers speak, they talk about how addictive wrestling is, particularly at that
level of having so many people be excited just to see you walk out and how do you go home and not do
that anymore? I think a lot of it is reckoning with no longer being seen as relevant. Not that you are
irrelevant, but that, at least, within American culture that is so geared towards youth that once you kind
of age out having to understand where you fit. And I think that Undertaker is a really good example of
somebody dealing with, how do I maintain relevancy, and wrestlers in general of how do I maintain and
how do I continue to exist as things shift and change.
Subir Sahu:
I mentioned Brett Favre. I think Brett Favre had challenges in walking away for those same reasons from
the sport of football. I'm really into sports, if you can't tell. I watched The Last Dance, that documentary
on Michael Jordan.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Subir Sahu:
Saw that. I'm in the middle of watching the Joe Montana documentary that's on Peacock, which is very,
very good. And it's at the stage of the documentary where they're talking about he's getting injured. He
had some challenges and Bill Walsh, the coach, was trying to bring on Steve Young to replace him. The
same thing. You know, I built this, this was a nothing town, nothing team. I brought it into relevancy and
now the next person's up in line to keep us going. Now I'm going to hold on to my spot. I think we all
struggle with that. And I love what you said. It's about relevancy, you know. Taking age out of it, you feel
relevant in a certain place, whether it's work or something personal. And if you feel like that's slipping
away, that's hard. And sometimes you do everything you can to hold onto it. Full circle, I think that's
what Undertaker did in his world of professional wrestling.
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Melinda Lewis:
It's not a fun pop culture narrative. It doesn't really bring people into seats. And so when you had
mentioned earlier, like Rocky, it got me thinking about wrestling movies that really borrowed how to
film things in the ring, I think from Rocky, but it's never about the aging out. It's about moving up into
the world of wrestling. It's about gaining that relevancy. The only one that I can think of is The Wrestler
by Darren Aronofsky and of what happens when you're completely out of the system, pretty much
entirely.
Speaker 23:
You really, this is [inaudible 00:17:23]
Speaker 24:
Randy, The Ram, Robinson.
Speaker 25:
Randy, Randy.
Melinda Lewis:
As somebody understanding all of the connections and relationships to wrestling and in your current
position, do you think about wrestling as it applies to student life all the time? Are you sitting back in
meetings going like, "Man, this is just like when Taker met up with Triple H, this is just between you and
me."
Subir Sahu:
I love this question. So no, I can honestly say I've never sat in a room and been like, "Man, this is just like
WrestleMania, whatever, when yeah." But I'll think about 80s NWA wrestling and what was the Four
Horseman and what they represented. And you had like Ric Flair who was the true leader of that group.
And then you had Arn Anderson who was kind of his body guard. And Tully Blanchard who was kind of
the next in line as the next Ric Flair. And then Ole Anderson who's like the old guard who was the anchor
of the group.
Ric Flair:
Because in several hours, woo, I'm going to walk that aisle, look as only the Nature Boy can look. So fine.
Subir Sahu:
Part of the reason I think the Four Horseman were such an amazing group, is it represented something.
There's always kind of a leader. There's always someone who's like the bodyguard of that leader. There's
someone who's up and coming and you know, is in the group, but could fall out at any point. And then
there's kind of the established old hand who is there for kind of expert guidance. I've thought about
that.
Melinda Lewis:
I think about who gets over in a wrestling ring and how akin to teaching that is of just like, "I have to get
them and I have to get them on my side and I have to know what jokes to do," but it's not necessarily
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like I'm walking in trying to do a Rock-like monologue nor do I think I could and be considered a good
instructor if I called them all jibronis. Maybe that's something to try and just work out.
Rock:
Undertaker, Mankind, Kane, and the Big Show, the Rock says you all four jabronis can go right down to
the Tropicana Hotel. You find the absolute best slot machine you can find. You can't miss it. It's got a big
brama bull on the front and it says, "The people's slot machine."
Jerry Lawler:
I saw that today.
Subir Sahu:
But one, I think we should be in more meetings together because we'd probably pull this out of each
other.
Melinda Lewis:
Nobody cares what you think. Yeah, just throw that [crosstalk 00:19:51]
Subir Sahu:
Just look at you and I'll be like, yes, but I never thought of it until you just mentioned it. The concept of
getting over, we do that every day. You try to get over with the certain group that you're with. You think
about who else is over and how you can kind of connect or model the same behaviors or actions so that
you can get over. Who's not over and why? Who's the baby face and who's the heel? Well, I think about
that stuff all the time. How am I going win over this room? How am I going to get buy in? Yeah,
absolutely. I think that plays out every day.
J.R.:
Sweet Chin Music.
Michael Cole:
Look at this.
J.R.:
Sweet Chin Music.
Michael Cole:
Look at this.
J.R.:
Sweet Chin Music. Pedigree.
Michael Cole:
Pedigree.
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J.R.:
Pedigree.
Michael Cole:
Streak's over. Streak's over.
J.R.:
The Undertaker [crosstalk 00:20:21] They haven't done. It's not over. It's not over.
Subir Sahu:
I think a lot of my really best memories in my lifetime were connected to things that happened in
professional wrestling or sports because it modeled or mirrored something that was larger, kind of
representative. I think as weird as this might sound to some people, there's a beauty in professional
wrestling. Its beauty is its simplicity. I think there's beauty in the fact that my father, when he
immigrated to this country and was looking for Americana or representation, started watching pro
wrestling. That's pretty cool. You know, and generations like my kids aren't into professional wrestling,
but know what wrestling is, will sit down from time to time and watch with me. There's a story or kind of
a deeper meaning behind all that. And even the Undertaker who was this kind of weird out of this
universe character, there was something simple about what he presented.
Melinda Lewis:
Well, I appreciate you talking with me about wrestling and Undertaker and all your hot takes that I'm
sure we will take out of context and put on wrestling Twitter and let you deal with the backlash.
Subir Sahu:
Yeah. Hey, whatever works. This was fun. I'd love to do it again.
Speaker 2:
Pop the Question was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are
produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under
the directorship of Erica Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen, and the Pennoni
Honors College at Drexel University. (singing)