Pop, the Question (S4: E34)
Life-Changing Albums
Featured Guests Denise Agosto, PhD (Professor and Director of the MS in Information Program, Information Science, College of Computing & Informatics, Drexel University); Jonson Miller, PhD (Teaching Professor of History, Department of History, College of Arts and Sciences); and Sheila Sandapen, PhD (Associate Teaching Professor and Director of Programs in English, Department of English and Philosophy, College of Arts and Sciences)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College)
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Assistant Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Graphic Design Alex Hotchkiss
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded January 31, 2021 through virtual conferencing in collaboration with The Adolescentia Project and Enrollment Management & Student Success (EMSS).
Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University.
To learn more about The Adolescentia Project, visit https://adolescentiaproject.com/. Copyright © 2021 Drexel University
Episode Summary
Remember when you were 14 and there was that one album that changed the way you see and hear the world? Taking its lead from The Adolescentia Project, a digital archive that honors the music of our past, this special episode delves deep into the 14 year-old selves of three Drexel University faculty members to understand how The Police, Carpenters, and Dead Milkmen impacted these listeners’ lives and outlooks. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis leads the listening party with Drs. Denise Agosto, Jonson Miller, and Sheila Sandapen to reminisce about formative records (along with a few bonus tracks).
Transcript:
Opening Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky "Pop, the Question" theme music plays with audio clips, featuring Oprah Winfrey and "The Golden Girls."].
Theme Intro (Melinda Lewis):
Welcome to "Pop, the Question," a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Melinda Lewis:
To everybody joining us, get tucked in because we're going to talk about music for the next 45 minutes and just live in joy. That's kind of what we're about. And today we're borrowing from another project that seeks to do the same thing, focusing on joy, memory, and roots. And that's The Adolescentia Project, started by Mary Beth Ray and Carrie Teresa. It's an oral archive of albums that help define people; the albums that, at 14, "give the courage to become who we are and act as a love letter to our 14 year-old selves, navigating the stress, uncertainty, and excitement of adolescence."
Melinda Lewis:
And, I don't know about you, but there was definitely uncertainty, anxiety, and stress as a 14 year-old adolescent. But, at the same time, I'm thinking about 14 as my lived experience and it being a pretty big year in all of the transitions that were shaping me at the time. And music was just one of those ways of really filtering that experience and trying to figure out who we are as people. And gravitating towards music that spoke to that, that amplified that, that helped us figure out words or feelings, while also potentially giving us the opportunity to find communities; find others who were responding to the world in the same way that we were; going to concerts or shows; and meeting people or building fan communities in some form or way. So, this is a way for us to go back to 14 year-old us and say, "Thank you."
Melinda Lewis:
So, with that being said, I'm going to get started in this conversation with three faculty members from Drexel who have agreed to share their 14 year-old selves with us today. This is like an all-star team of people who have contributed greatly to the fabric of the Honors College. So, just a general thank-you for all the work that you've done and also spending time with us to talk about your albums. So, we have Jonson Miller from the History Department, Denise Agosto from Information Science, and Sheila Sandapen from English.
Melinda Lewis:
Well, I want to go and just start with everybody saying what your album is and if you remember how you found it. Sheila, what is your album?
Sheila Sandapen:
So, my album is "Synchronicity" by The Police and, actually, it was a birthday gift. [Sheila laughs. "Synchonicity I" intro music begins to rise in the background.]
Melinda Lewis:
Awww, from who?
Sheila Sandapen:
My parents.
Sheila Sandapen:
Aw! Cool parents!
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Synchronicity I" audio clip plays. Over fast, punchy music, Sting sings, "With one breath / With one flow / You will know / Synchronicity." Music fades.]
Denise Agosto:
You must be exactly my age. [Sheila laughs.] That came out the year I was 14.
Sheila Sandapen:
It's interesting reliving the whole 14-through-music again, because I have a 14 year-old [Melinda laughs] and My Chemical Romance is really big right now with the 14 year-old. And I'm just like, "You know what? We had The Smiths." [Sheila and Melinda laugh.] We had this whole discussion the other day, how I cannot be emo because The Smiths weren't emo; they just were the precursor. [Sheila laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
I guess, if you're into categories, but.... [Sheila laughs.]
Jonson Miller:
Fourteen year-olds would never be into categories, would they? [Sheila laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
No! Not at all.
Audio Clips:
[The Smiths' "Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want" audio clip plays. Morrissey sings, "Lord knows, it would be the first time," followed by ethereal guitar and mandolin music. Music fades.]
Sheila Sandapen:
I was tempted, but I thought, "Well, strictly speaking, that was a little bit after 14 for me." So, I was trying to think, "OK, 14: what was really going on?"
Melinda Lewis:
I feel like, with this project, I don't know about you all, but there was a tension as I was thinking about my 14 year-old album, between what I wish I had listened to---what I had discovered later in life that was around the time I was 14. And I was like, "Man, that would have been so cool, if I would've done that." But having to be honest with myself about who I was.
Sheila Sandapen:
Sure, I wanted to be a little bit cooler. I didn't know if "Synchronicity" was too mainstream and people would be like [scoffs], but it was kind of interesting. But I decided to honor that 14 year-old self.
Melinda Lewis:
Well, good for you!
Denise Agosto:
I was trying to decide between that and the one I chose. So, I'm so glad I went that way.
Sheila Sandapen:
Oh, Denise, what did you choose?
Denise Agosto:
Mine is "The Singles: 1969-1973" by the Carpenters.
Sheila Sandapen:
OK.
Denise Agosto:
My mother bought it when I was just a toddler. And, after a couple of years, I went into her vinyl cabinet and took it and moved it into my room. And it became mine. [Melinda laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
Did she know that you did that or was that just your....
Denise Agosto:
I think she noticed. She played it for years. She got tired of it, but I never did.
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "Yesterday Once More" audio clip plays. Over soft piano chords, Karen Carpenter sings, "Those were such happy times and not so long ago / How I wondered where they'd gone / But they're back again just like a long-lost friend / All those songs I loved so well / Every sha-la-la-la / Every whoah-ew-oh-oh / Still shines." Strings come in and music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
It's funny how that works...yeah, how your parents' collection slowly but surely moves into your collection, whether they recognize it or not.
Denise Agosto:
Everybody's blushing on my behalf. [Jonson and Sheila laugh.]
Melinda Lewis:
I love it. I love it so much. I'm so excited.
Denise Agosto:
OK. But "Synchronicity" was also (and remains) very important to me.
Sheila Sandapen:
OK.
Melinda Lewis:
Jonson?
Jonson Miller:
Mine is "Big Lizard in My Backyard" by The Dead Milkmen, which then came out in 1985.
Sheila Sandapen:
OK! OK.
Denise Agosto:
Ewww!
Jonson Miller:
Very likely you've never heard of them.
Sheila Sandapen:
Well, no. I've heard of The Milkmen.
Jonson Miller:
Oh, OK. [Sheila laughs.]
Audio Clips:
[The Dead Milkmen's "Bitchin Camaro" audio clip plays. Over intro skit with walking bassline, Rodney Anonymous says, "Hey, Jack, what's happenin'?" Joe Jack Talcum says, "I don't know." Anonymous says, "Well, uh, rumor 'round town says you might be thinkin' 'bout going down to the Shore." Talcum says, "Uh, yeah, I think I'm gonna go down to the Shore." Anonymous asks, "What are you goin' to do down there?" Talcum responds, "Uh, I don't know; play some video games, buy some Def Leppard T-shirts." Anonymous says, "Don't forget your Mötley Crüe T-shirt. You know, all proceeds go to get their lead singer outta jail." Talcum says, "Uh, huh." Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
I think it was...a friend of my brother's had it and it was just not something he was interested in and so passed it along to me and it blew my mind.
Melinda Lewis:
I feel like there are several albums of that, where somebody was not interested or over it. And then they were like, "Do you want it?" And I was like, "I guess. OK, fine." And then it just blew my world up in a weird way. There's a couple of albums like that, so that's really exciting to hear.
Audio Clips:
["Almost Famous" audio clip plays. Alongside Simon & Garfunkel's "America," a big sister says to her little brother, "One day, you'll be cool. Look under your bed. It'll set you free." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
Jonson, can you start us by talking about what your 14 year-old self loved about that Dead Milkmen album?
Jonson Miller:
Yeah, so, to that point, I had been listening exclusively and rigidly to heavy metal. And I had...I was almost contemptuous of other forms of music and I had a very narrow sense of what music could or should be. And then I heard this album, which was this sort of absurdist punk. It was goofy and satirical and it just blew my mind as to what music could be like and just busted me out of that rigidity. While, at the same time, it was addressing that sort of White working class anger and alienation that heavy metal at the time did. So, it addressed those things, but in a way that seemed like life could also be joyful and fun and unpretentious.
Audio Clips:
[The Dead Milkmen's "Tiny Town" audio clip plays. Rodney Anonymous sings, "We got ourself a sheriff and his name's Bobby Joe / One day, he said to me, 'Them punk rockers gotta go!' / So, we hopped into his pickup truck with a gun rack on the back / And we beat up on them punks and we beat up on them Blacks / Because...." Anonymous and Joe Jack Talcum sing the chorus, "This is a tiny town / And we don't want you comin' 'round." Music fades with melodic guitar solo.]
Melinda Lewis:
That's interesting to think about, because that's a weird album in terms of combining...it's somewhat rockabilly, but there's also some classic punk/ska techniques. Thinking about that in conversation with something like The Police, where you also hear all of this "synchronicity" and joy...Sheila, can you talk about "Synchronicity" in terms of what you loved about it at the time? Was it kind of the same or not the same?
Sheila Sandapen:
Sure. So, the worst thing ever happened to me when I was 13: my parents left England and they moved to the United States. But I grew up in North London and, initially, I thought this was going to be an amazing thing. Then I got here and I didn't have friends and I didn't know anyone and I couldn't go anywhere because there isn't this wonderful, fantastic public system of transportation. And, also, we moved in May. So, when you're in England, school goes through to July; when you come here in May, they tell you, "Well, you have to wait until September." So, there was this period of isolation where I kept questioning, "What am I doing here?"
Sheila Sandapen:
And, so, strangely enough, The Police...so, it was a gift, but I had requested it. It was my way of connecting because, at the same time, in the early '80s, you have Margaret Thatcher and you have the struggle of the working class. And, as immigrants---because my parents originally emigrated from Mauritius to London and then they came here---we were never living it high. And, so, we were labor people; we were the people who were anti-Thatcher (and, of course, I was parroting my father's political views). But, in some ways, The Police---even though it's named after an establishment that was sort of part of the problem---was a way to connect with home, because we didn't have the internet back then; we couldn't Skype. So, I would have to write a letter; put it in the mail; wait two weeks for a response from one of my friends. So, that album with its crazy tracks..."Mother" being a little off there.
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Mother" audio clip plays. Andy Summers sings over noisy music, "Well, the telephone is ringing / Is that my mother on the phone? / The telephone is ringing / Is that my mother on the phone? / The telephone is screaming / Won't she leave me alone?" Music fades.]
Sheila Sandapen:
And then that angst of "King of Pain:" "There's a spot in the sun and that's my soul up there." [Music slowly fades in.] That was me...it was what kept my angst going, but it also affirmed that I wasn't as alone as I thought I was.
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "King of Pain" audio clip plays. Sting sings smoothly, "There's a little black spot on the sun today / That's my soul up there / It's the same old thing as yesterday / That's my soul up there." Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
Just happened to be sitting next to me.
Sheila Sandapen:
Love it! [Sheila laughs.]
Denise Agosto:
Well, my copy, by the way...my vinyl copy of "Synchronicity" is at the basement. I have it on vinyl, I have it on tape, and I also have it on CD...and MP3. [Melinda laughs.].
Sheila Sandapen:
There you go! [Sheila laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
And, yeah, I don't really feel like The Police get credit for kind of connecting with the time. I feel like it's always, "Don't Stand [So] Close to Me" or "Roxanne." I mean, you hear these hits that just get co-opted from the time, but thinking about how they were combining sounds and tapping into these aspects of culture that were connecting and disconnecting at the same time. [Fast-paced music fades in.]
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Synchronicity I" audio clip plays. Over the chorus, Sting sings, "A connecting principle / Linked to the invisible / Almost imperceptible / Something inexpressible / Science insusceptible." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
And another band that I think gets...I think they get a short shrift, Denise, but the Carpenters are not necessarily known for their politics or their political fortuitousness. What was it, though, that resonated for you as a 14 year-old, especially as discovering it in your collection?
Denise Agosto:
I think in order to explain why it had such a big impact on me, we have to place the album and the Carpenters themselves in historical context. Most people my age would say that there were two really big events in music history that stick out in their minds, where everybody knows where they were and what they were doing when they heard the news.1977: Elvis died. Most people my age know exactly where they were and what they were doing; I have no idea and I don't remember. I only knew that my dad liked Elvis; I didn't know his music. Then there's 1980: John Lennon. Again, most people say, "Oh, I know where I was when I heard that John Lennon was shot." Me? I have no idea whatsoever. What I do remember is 1983: Karen Carpenter died.
Denise Agosto:
It was two weeks before my 14th birthday. I was in gym class. I had just put on that dreadful white polyester gym outfit we had to wear in the 1980s with the way too short Navy blue shorts that, no matter how hard you pulled at them, they were still just too short. I still remember; I was reaching down to tie my tennis shoe and I heard someone say, "Karen Carpenter died." And I was just devastated, because that was my childhood. I'd been listening to just one album of theirs for over 10 years, as long as I could remember and I found out that day that she died of anorexia. So, for me, I loved that album because it represented childhood. And that smack, that emotional hit of finding out that day that the music, which is so happy...it represents this sanitized, clean, innocent view of the world, which was really covering up a much deeper and darker reality for the two people in the band, Karen Carpenter and her brother Richard Carpenter. So, my love of the album is combined with my childhood adoration of these sweet, sincere lyrics with a deeper understanding of what was really going on in the world. [Music fades in.]
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "Top of the World" audio clip plays. Alongside jaunty music, Karen Carpenter sings, "And the reason is clear / It's because you are here / You're the nearest thing to heaven that I've seen / I'm on the top of the world / Lookin' down on creation / And the only explanation I can find / Is the love that I found ever since you've been around / Your love's put me at the top of the world." Keyboard music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
I feel like sincerity is so important, because I feel like, at 14, sincerity is not happening; that there is a lot of posturing or a lot of anxiety in being sincere or in putting yourself out there. And, so, I think it's really interesting that, both Denise and Sheila, you were talking about this in terms of sense and self; finding something that kind of resonated with your experience, being a human being at that time. And, so, when you're listening to these albums...and Jonson, I don't forget about you; I know that you're there. You just didn't bring it up as exclusively, but I'm sure it's there. In terms of sitting into that 14 year-old self, do you remember, at the time, feeling a sense of importance or is this something that you're kind of looking back on and going, "Oh, wow! That actually meant something." It sounds like, Denise, you felt it at the time, but I'm wondering if others kind of felt the impact at the time or if it's like a "Looking back, you recognize the impact."
Jonson Miller:
Yeah, it was a real visceral experience hearing this Dead Milkmen for the first time. But the consequences of it kind of rolled out slowly afterwards. It was this sort of great opening that occurred for me. And, so, like I already said how it's like, "Oh, music could be more than what I had created rigidly for myself," listening to such a narrow range of music...where I listened to White working class metal; it was violent and aggressive and explicitly misogynistic at times. And then, listening to The Dead Milkmen, opening up that music could be a lot more things. And here, again, they were addressing this White working class anger and alienation, but from a left-wing perspective instead of a far-right perspective.
Audio Clips:
[The Dead Milkmen's "Right Wing Pigeons" audio clip plays. Over funky, disco instrumentation, Rodney Anonymous sings, "The man in the White House, who just don't care / He starves little kids and he dyes his hair / Now what could make him think that way? / What could make him act that way?" Joe Jack Talcum joins in for the chorus: "He's just a right-wing pigeon from outer space / Sent here to destroy the human race." Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
But I think, even more importantly, is the way this is sort of like a transitional album for me...the way that it opened me up to other things. I can think of albums within the next few years that had a big impact on me. Bauhaus' "Burning from the Inside" or Jane's Addiction's "Nothing's Shocking," in particular, were showing me new ways of expressing masculinity.
Audio Clips:
[Jane's Addiction's "Had a Dad" audio clip plays. Perry Farrell sings over grungy, hard rock music, "If you see my dad / Tell him my brothers all gone mad / They're beatin' on each other / I walked around / Even tried to call / Had that funny feeling / God is dead." Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
Again, coming out of that explicitly misogynistic or aggressive and violent sort of masculinity from metal. And then it was becoming secretly enamored with The Communards or Dead or Alive, Erasure, and then Pet Shop Boys and just be amazed like, "Oh, my goodness! There's all these other ways of being masculine." And at a time with...this was before Ellen['s] first kiss on television; the only explicitly gay thing you could see on television. I mean, there was [the] Levi commercial. And [it] just really opened me up into ways of thinking about the ways of being in the world and being masculine. That was just...fundamentally changed my sense of self.
Melinda Lewis:
And I imagine there has to be this feeling of opening, when you find at 14 that there's something that taps into "not the mainstream." When masculinity is advertised this way and you find something that's like, "But it doesn't have to be." And it opens up this whole new world of being that I feel like, at 14, feels so liberating to feel like, "This doesn't feel like me. I like this music, but I'm not interested in being like Bret Michaels and whatever masculinity he is advertising. But I'm really excited about what's happening here and what this opens up in terms of self-exploration." I don't know if others have the similar experience...like Sheila thinking about The Police opening up a bonding experience of them speaking to you as a 14 year-old.
Sheila Sandapen:
Right and I think it's interesting, because I don't know if, at the time...Jonson, you were talking about different representations of masculinity. I was certainly a big Pet Shop Boys fan; I loved Boy George, Culture Club, David Bowie. [Sheila laughs.] And, so, I guess to go back to your original question, Melinda, I don't think, at the time, I understood how it was affecting me. But now we're living in a world where we're (some of us are) beginning to be more open to the variants of what it is to be human, to be on the gender scale. And it just occurred to me while you were talking, Jonson, that maybe I could go back and trace it to some of this music that I was listening to and loving and not even realizing that, by connecting to it, I wasn't necessarily judging it.
Sheila Sandapen:
So, I guess that goes to the power of pop culture, whether it's television representation of "Will & Grace" being on American TV and, "Look! People who love differently are normal." I think I said at the very beginning that I really went on into The Smiths, The Smithereens, a little bit of the Sex Pistols, but I was very much interested in this development of the social structure, as well as the political structure that was going on in England, even though it was no longer my home. I think I became more English, when I moved here. It was just so important to me to hold on to England. So, I really paid attention in terms of what was happening there and politically as well as culturally in terms of music, film---just social structures.
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Synchronicity II" audio clip plays. Sting sings over upbeat rock music, "Another industrial ugly morning / The factory belches filth into the sky / He walks unhindered through the picket lines today / He doesn't think to wonder why / The secretaries pout and preen like cheap tarts in a red light street." Music fades.]
Sheila Sandapen:
I think, as that 14 year-old, I was sort of paying attention. I didn't have a lot of friends; I didn't speak up a lot, but I was listening all the time and I was paying attention and I was making connections. So, I think all of those references started to percolate and it took a while.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Sheila Sandapen:
It takes a while to kind of come through.
Melinda Lewis:
Does it also foster a sense of connection with others or was it more frustrating, because people were just talking about the music and not thinking about the implications of the structure? Was it an in or did it further isolate you, because you recognized like, "These jokers just don't get it?"
Sheila Sandapen:
Oh, I don't think I was dismissive, but there's always been a part of me that just sort of lives in my head. So, when we moved, we bought this house and, for whatever reason, there was no furniture on the first floor. My mother, for whatever reason, kept the television up in her bedroom. So, there was this space downstairs that no one was using. And I just remember playing "Synchronicity" over and over again and I would dance to it. So, I would perform ballets in this empty space; this is how I was spending my evenings. I don't know why I was doing that. [Sheila laughs.] Maybe it was for something to do, but I just remember "Every Breath You Take" or "King of Pain" and choreographing it and just playing it over and over again and doing this in the evenings. So, it was like my time to sort of live in my space and my head.
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Every Breath You Take" audio clip plays. Sting sings over a rock sway, "Oh, can't you see? / You belong to me / How my poor heart aches / With every step you take." Music fades into background, but continues under dialogue.]
Melinda Lewis:
I don't know why you did it either, but I did something very similar and I was constructing...I would listen to albums or music over and over again and create the music videos that I wish it would be. And, of course, I was the star of all of them. So, it was just a way for me to integrate myself into these narratives. But, yeah, the room as---whether it was your room or another room---a sacred space of play and imagination that the music became the soundtrack for, I think resonates. And I hope that still remains true. I don't know if people just sit in their rooms anymore and just listen. That space is so sacred to me and I don't...and it happened for so much longer than 14, but it was so significant.
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Wrapped Around Your Finger" audio clip plays. Instrumental music with reggae dub feel plays and fades into promo segment.]
Promo Segment (Speaker 1):
[Phone rings and voicemail message begins.] Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the Twitter or the Facebook? You know, like, if I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Promo Segment (Melinda Lewis):
[Tape whirling effect, followed by "Pop, the Question" instrumental theme music and Melinda Lewis.] 'Sup, Mom! Uh, yeah. So, you can find us on all those things, actually: Twitter; Instagram; Facebook. Just go to "popquestpod" on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at "popqpodcast" or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. Alright, love you. Bye! [Promo segment theme music concludes with "Scooby-doo-bop!"].
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "We've Only Just Begun" audio clip plays. Over upbeat, soft rock music, Richard Carpenter sings, "And yes we've just begun." Karen Carpenter takes the lead and sings, "Sharin' horizons that are new to us / Watchin' the signs along the way." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
Denise, I was thinking about the Carpenters as both Jonson and Sheila were talking, because they're talking about how their albums really break from the structures. And what I find so interesting about the Carpenters is that they don't really break from the structures. And thinking about how they were always considered pop music, but also the effects of these larger cultural i ssues, particularly on Karen Carpenter's body and the conformity and non-conformity. Were you taking that in as a 14 year-old or was this something that you were processing in terms of their impact on you and these larger issues? Or was it just like, "I want to listen to 'We've Only Just Begun' on repeat"?
Denise Agosto:
Well, I think the appeal of the album for me was comfort. And, the fact that the album is melancholy in melody but the lyrics are unrelentingly happy, even songs about being lonely always end up with "It's okay, because someone loves me." For me, I think that was really what the appeal was: it was comfort; it was my playing at my mother's feet when I was three years old, all going around and around in my mind; and the fact that the Carpenters did not buck the trend in any way. They were seen as very much in line with popular culture at the time.
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "Ticket to Ride" audio clip plays. Karen and Richard Carpenter sing a melancholy, dreamy chorus: "He's got a ticket to ride / And he don't care / Don't know why he's ridin' so high." Music fades.]
Denise Agosto:
Which, for, me met my personality, because I did not want to grow up. I wanted to be a kid. The rest of my friends were interested in maturation, exploring teenhood; I wanted to play with my stuffed animals and stay in my room. And I think this album enabled me to do that. And that's why the shock was so harsh, when I found out that Karen Carpenter was killed; it was my first real understanding of death. I'd never really known anyone who died. And even though it was a one-sided relationship, she was someone I knew who died. And, also, it was the idea that the innocence and comfort of childhood were taken away from me. So, in many ways, for me, it was the conformity of the album that I liked. It was safe, it was secure, and it was protective. [Music fades in.].
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenter's "Rainy Days and Mondays" audio clip plays. Karen Carpenter sings in a soft, melancholy tone, "What I've got, they used to call the blues / Nothin' is really wrong / Feelin' like I don't belong / Walkin' around / Some kind of lonely clown / Rainy days and Mondays always get me down." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
Right, the intimacy that we build with these albums and these artists that just feel so deeply personal, whether it is the comforting weighted blanket that tells us that we're just cycling into something that is part of our childhood or leading us into these new terrains of who we could be and who we are. When I did my...I did my album on the Foo Fighters' "[The] Colour and the Shape." [The Foo Fighters' "Everlong" audio clip fades in briefly and then plays in the background.] But I didn't really feel, at the time, that the album impacted my sense of self as much as opened up other things that dramatically affected me. It opened me up more to Nirvana and Veruca Salt and these things that came out in the early '90s that I was not exposed to at the time.
Audio Clips:
[The Foo Fighters' "Everlong" audio clip continues. Grungy, hard rock rises and Dave Grohl sings, "If everything could ever feel this real forever / If anything could ever be this good again." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
So, I guess...when you were 14, are you recognizing who you're becoming while listening to The Police? Do you feel like it's ushering in this new version of you or maybe reinforcing what's already there?
Sheila Sandapen:
I think, for me, it was sort of choosing because, in a way, I was reinventing myself and I could be many different things. Because, if you listen to an album that's called "Synchronicity," it's not very synchronous. [Sheila laughs.] There's discord and there's angst and there's some...like the whole dinosaur song. How do you explain that?
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Walking in Your Footsteps" audio clip plays. Over synthesized percussion, Sting sings, "Fifty million years ago / You walked upon the planet so / Lord of all that you could see / Just a little bit like me / Walking in your footsteps." Music fades.].
Sheila Sandapen:
And, so, it was sort of opening up to like, "Well, who am I going to be"? I mentioned at the beginning that I have a 14 year-old now and I think one of the legacies of listening to The Police is that...is a remembering and an honoring of what it is to be the angsty 14 year-old and not to just roll your eyes, because feelings are feelings. And they're real to you and, therefore, you should honor that. And, so, I try. So, I think that's one of the ways in which being maybe a little bit more empathetic, it's sort of seeped into my soul. It was all that ballet dancing music. [Sheila laughs as The Police's "King of Pain" audio clip fades in and plays in the background.] I probably should not have admitted that. [Sheila laughs.].
Melinda Lewis:
Nope! This is what we're here to...to honor that...to honor every part of it.
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "King of Pain" continues. Sting sings a capella, "It's the same old thing as yesterday." Instrumental rock music comes in and Sting continues, "I've stood here before inside the pouring rain / With the world turnin' circles, runnin' 'round my brain / I guess I'm always hopin' that you'll end this reign / But it's my destiny to be the king of pain." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
And, Jonson, I'm thinking of...it seems to me---and I might be wrong---but, in your discussion of Dead Milkmen and seeing this other possibility of masculinity. So, at that time, how does that function in terms of having the mainstream say, "This is what this is" and finding albums that detract but, in also bucking mainstream convention, also having that tension between "No, no, no, no. That's not...you have to perform masculinity in this way."
Jonson Miller:
So, it really wasn't "Big Lizard" that really challenged my sense of masculinity, because there's nothing particularly unconventional about the masculinity of that (at least early Dead Milkmen). But the thing that...the way it opened me up and then leading me to those other albums, like I was saying Bauhaus or Jane's Addiction or whatever where...but which, of course, came very close on the heels of "Big Lizard." And yet...so I ended up with a life of being always quite reflexive about being in the world and performing masculinity and recognizing the choices and the variety. And, so, that was something I was always quite consciously aware of.
Audio Clips:
[Bauhaus' "Boys" audio clip plays. Over ominous post-punk music, Peter Murphy sings, "Features so fine / Rouge and eyeline / Things I fancy / Just like Nancy / Ah!" Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
I was thinking in terms of gender quite explicitly, as well as class which I just couldn't avoid (being a working class kid in a middle class school). There's things that were just obvious; you just couldn't couldn't avoid it. And growing up in a steel town during Reagan, when the steel industry was collapsing. And people talk about Reagan's period as this great economic boost but, for us, it was recession and economic collapse and the devastation of our town. And I'd carried this with me until, eventually, I wrote a book substantially about masculinity. I'm a historian: U.S. history.
Jonson Miller:
And then when I was working on my dissertation and I was looking at the Virginia Military Institute as this odd engineering school that popped up out of the middle of nowhere in Virginia. And I started looking at the historical documents that they have in the institution and I said, "Wow, they keep talking about manhood!" And I found that so fascinating and, so, I ended up writing...the main title of the book is "Engineering Manhood." You're looking at this engineering program---these engineers----and crafting a particular sense of manhood, particularly of White manhood and the way that they deployed that in Virginia politics before the Civil War. So, it just sort of became what I do, even professionally. So, I guess I can thank The Dead Milkmen for opening the gate to that possibility. [Melinda laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
I think when these questions come up, people think that it has to be like, "Well, this album did everything for me ever. It opened up the space that did that." But, I feel like it just kind of implants the question of like, "Maybe there's something else; maybe there's something more; maybe there's a path that I can pave myself.
Melinda Lewis:
Denise, we've talked a little bit about the larger infrastructures---and maybe you referenced this---but did the Carpenters make you see the world any differently or was it really, for you, about that comfort and that being, in essence, what you wanted out of the world?
Denise Agosto:
Yeah, I think it was the exact opposite. The Carpenters enabled me not to see the world. They enabled me to think of a world where everything is optimistic and perfect and sung in three-part harmony.
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenter's "Yesterday Once More" audio clip plays. Karen Carpenter softly sings, "It's yesterday once more / Every sha-la-la-la / Every whoah-ew-oh-oh / Still shines." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
Now, when you...this is for everybody: when you hear these albums now, do you picture yourself as a 14 year-old self? Like, do you tap in to that former you that's also still a part of you or do you just kind of listen to it and enjoy the music?
Sheila Sandapen:
Absolutely. I mean, I'll start singing and get weird looks and it's just that abandonment of like, "Oh, right!" Because I'm so far from 14 now. I don't know if I'm cool, but a little bit more self-assured. But there's that twinge of, "Oh, right. I remember this. This is part of my story." So, absolutely.
Audio Clips:
[The Police's "Synchronicity II" audio clip plays. Over rushing rock music, Sting repeats, "Many miles away." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
Do you still remember the choreography? [Sheila laughs.]
Sheila Sandapen:
If you gave me a moment, probably. [Sheila laughs.]
Melinda Lewis:
I didn't prepare anybody for a choreographed dance, so that wasn't a part of it. [Sheila laughs.] But, if you do, I would love to see it. Jonson...Denise?
Jonson Miller:
Until you all invited me to do this and I thought about that album...I was really surprised that "Big Lizard" ended up being the one I chose. I haven't listened to it in years! And, so, yesterday or the day before, I started listening to it again as well as listening to Jane's Addiction...well, Bauhaus, who I've mentioned several times. I have just listened to them continually. I've worn out...I wore out three cassettes of "Burning from the Inside" and, now, I have two copies of the CD. I wore out a CD of it as well. [Music fades in.]
Audio Clips:
[Bauhaus' "She's in Parties" audio clip plays. Peter Murphy sings, "She's in parties! / Oh, it's in the can." Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
But I hadn't listened to Jane's Addiction or Dead Milkmen for years. I put it on and listened to "Big Lizard" and thought, "I would never...this is awful." [Jonson laughs.] Yeah, sorry to the guys in the band. But, there's some really offensive stuff on there (for one thing). There's this really lo-fi garage band stuff, which was kind of cool, but...yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I guess I kind of grew out of it and that's okay.
Audio Clips:
[The Dead Milkmen's "Nutrition" audio clip plays. Over romping punk rock music, Rodney Anonymous sings, "My folks said I gotta get myself a job / 'Cause they ain't gonna support me / Well, if all I am to them is just some lazy slob / Why didn't they abort me?" Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
But it provided that opening for other things that I feel like have infiltrated. So, you can kind of divorce yourself from that particular album, but it sounds like it led you on this other path towards other stuff.
Jonson Miller:
I'm in debt to it.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. Denise, what about you?
Denise Agosto:
I haven't listened to the Carpenters album in at least a decade, so I pulled it out and listened yesterday. And the first few songs, I thought, "Oh, my gosh. This is just cringe-worthy. It's so '70s. I can tell they're playing a harp!"
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "Close to You" audio clip plays. Following the strum of harp strings, Karen Carpenter sings, "On the day that you were born, the angels got together / And decided to create a dream come true." Music fades.]
Denise Agosto:
So, I fast forwarded through the first few songs. Parts of it are quite cringe-worthy, but other parts I can see what appealed to me and some of the beauty of the music.
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "Superstar" audio clip plays. Over pacing, melancholy music, Karen Carpenter sings, "Long ago and oh so far away / I fell in love with you before the second show / Don't you remember you told me you love me, baby? " Music volume decreases and continues in the background.]
Denise Agosto:
And then I remembered, as I started getting into it, that the album gets better as it goes along. And, by about the fourth song, I was singing so loudly that I had to close the door to the bedroom. [Melinda laughs.]
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "Superstar" audio clip continues. Over louder music, Karen Carpenter belts, "Baby, baby, baby, baby, oh baby / I love you / I really do." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
In terms of spreading the word of these albums...Denise, you had mentioned that your mom had played this over and over and over again. So, she was a fan. But, Sheila and Jonson, did either of your parents get either sick of the album or was there a moment where they were like, "You can't listen to this garbage!"? I feel like there might be some room for that type of tension but...or "Stop dancing! Just read a book!"
Jonson Miller:
So, when I got that cassette from my brother's friend, I guess my mom must have seen the cover or something and it looked ridiculous and "What is that?" And, probably wanting to know what was going on with her 14 year-old son said, "Well, put it on." And the whole family sat there and listened to it and laughed.
Audio Clips:
[The Dead Milkmen's "Beach Song" audio clip plays. Over boisterous punk rock, Rodney Anonymous and Joe Jack Talcum sing, "I don't wanna be on the beach / No fun!" Music volume decreases and plays in the background.]
Jonson Miller:
You know, "Beach Song," talking about the guy who doesn't want to go to the beach and how he fed his ice cream to a shark and now he's got nothing to eat!
Audio Clips:
[The Dead Milkmen's "Beach Song" audio clip continues. Rodney Anonymous shouts, "This is no way to spend a summer! / I've got sandcake on my feet / I gave my ice cream to a shark and now I've got nothing to eat / No fun!" Joe Jack Talcum sings, "I don't wanna be on the beach." Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
So, the family's just sitting there, laughing along with this thing. I think my mother was probably relieved that it was something other than heavy metal which, in the '80s, it was associated with Satanism and crime and was this horrible thing that you didn't want around. So, I'm sure this was a great relief for my mother. [Melinda laughs.].
Melinda Lewis:
Sheila, what about you?
Sheila Sandapen:
So, I think one of the things that I realized is how we listen to music has changed---or at least in my family, it has--- because, when I was 14, we had one record player. So, I guess if people were watching TV, they were upstairs in my mother's room, but if they were downstairs, they were listening to it. And I have to say, both my parents never censored anything we listened to or read. And I think that's a wonderful thing. And I think....I don't think it's because they were being super progressive; I think they were just busy. They were working, they were putting food on the table. They were off on to the next chore. [Sirens blare in the background from Sheila's location.]
Sheila Sandapen:
But, do you remember the big...I think it was Al Gore's wife, who came after Prince's album "Purple Rain"? [Prince's "Darling Nikki" audio clip plays in background. Prince squeals over hard rock music.] And my brother had it and he was playing it and we were just roaring and probably...I think that room was still empty and, so, we were still dancing around in that room---our own private dance floor. And I remember me saying to my brother, "You know, you're not...this is explicit. You're not supposed to be listening to it." But my parents didn't know; they didn't look at the album. Plus, I think---in some ways, too---The Police had been played on the radio in England, so my mother remembers them. And, so, it was just like, "Oh, they're just doing their thing." So, I guess we were thankful that our parents were just too busy to be paying attention. And we weren't bad kids, so.... [Sheila laughs.].
Melinda Lewis:
You could get away with it.
Sheila Sandapen:
We could get away with it. [Sheila laughs as Prince's "Purple Rain" audio clip fades in.].
Audio Clips:
[Prince's "Purple Rain" audio clip plays. Prince sings soulfully and alongside rock music, "Purple rain / Purple rain." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
We have five minutes left, so the last question I wanted to do---and I know that this is a surprise, so if you don't have an answer to it, that's fine---but, if you could recommend an album to a 14 year-old, what would you be?
Sheila Sandapen:
So, I'm currently mildly obsessed with Charming Disaster, which is this indie band that's based in New York. I guess they market themselves as a cross between Edward Gorey and Edgar Allan Poe. [Eerie guitar music fades in.]
Audio Clips:
[Charming Disaster's "Driving to Idaho" audio clip plays. Over eerie country folk music, two singers trade off. Jeff Morris sings, "Shoutin' at the windshield / Rain is comin' down." Ellia Bisker sings, "Just another day till the money runs out." Both sing, "Take a deep breath / It's all under control / Drivin' to Idaho." Music fades.].
Sheila Sandapen:
Hearing stories about driving to Idaho with a shovel in the back [Shiela laughs] or Baba Yaga, I became slightly obsessed. And, then, my 14 year-old started listening to them and has shared it with their 14 year-old friends. And everyone's like, "Oh, you're so cool. How'd you find out about this?" And I don't get the credit. [Sheila laughs.].
Melinda Lewis:
No. I feel like that is just parenthood summed up in a nutshell. Jonson...Denise? Any recommendations?
Denise Agosto:
In the vein of sentimentality as one who has a past with the Carpenters oh so sentimental, I'm going to go sentimental again. Adam Schlesinger died very, very early in the COVID pandemic...died of COVID-19. He was one of the two lead singers and writers in Fountains of Wayne. I live in New Jersey; big New Jersey band. If you don't know Fountains of Wayne, they deserve the honor because he did die of the pandemic. And I'd say "Utopia Parkway" is a good way to start with their music. [Grungy, power pop guitar fades in.]
Audio Clips:
[Fountains of Wayne's "Denise" audio clip plays. A lead vocalist sings, "I know this girl named Denise / She makes me weak at the knees / She drives a lavender Lexus / She lives in Queens, but her dad lives in Texas." Heavy power pop music kicks in with Adam Schlesinger's background vocals, alongside the lead vocalist: "Sha-la-la-la-la-la-la / When she holds me / Sha-la-la-la-la-la-la / I can't help myself / Sha-la-la-la-la-la-la." Music volume decreases and continues in the background.]
Melinda Lewis:
I feel like that resonated. When he died, there was just such a wave of grief that I didn't realize how impactful Fountains of Wayne had been.
Audio Clips:
[Fountains of Wayne's "Denise" audio clip continues. Background and lead vocals harmonize and sing, "Oh, baby, tell me please." Music fades.]
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, so, I think that's a great call. Jonson?
Jonson Miller:
I think it would be John Coltrane's "Ascension." So, this is jazz and it was one of the peaks of Coltrane's atonal, dissonant period. So, it's one of those things: you hear it; you're either just going to hate it; or you're not going to necessarily immediately love it, but you're going to think, "Wow, this may potentially be the greatest thing I've ever heard." And I think it is one of the great peaks of Western music. [Cacophonous hard bop jazz music fades in.]
Audio Clips:
[John Coltrane's "Ascension" audio clip plays. The music is instrumental, but cacophonous with horns, drums, bass, and piano all interacting. Music fades.]
Jonson Miller:
It is a challenging thing to hear. And I spent about two weeks listening to it twice every night thinking, "Well, it's Coltrane. I love him, so it's got to be great, but I don't get it." That's my fault; not his. And I listened and, then, one day it clicked, because that's how music happens. We...our brains meld themselves to hear certain sorts of sounds. And this is atonal music; it's not what we're used to. And, so, it just takes some doing, but then it clicks and you suddenly...it's not atonal. There is harmony there. It's not arrhythmic; there is a "rhythmic" there. It's just not what we're used to hearing. And I think it's just one of the most unbelievable things that humans have ever created.
Melinda Lewis:
I would love to have more 14 year-olds listen to Coltrane. Just love it---or it to show up more on my TikToks as I scroll through the night.
Melinda Lewis:
We are at time, but thank you to all those [who] attended. Thank you to our panelists and thank you to The Adolescentia Project for giving us permission to use their format to talk about that music that meant a lot to us and our 14 year-old selves. [Serene flute music fades in and plays in the background.]
Jonson Miller:
Thank you. That was fun.
Sheila Sandapen:
Thank you.
Denise Agosto:
Thanks, everybody. Bye, bye.
Melinda Lewis:
Bye, everybody.
Audio Clips:
[The Carpenters' "We've Only Just Begun" audio clip plays. Over serene flute music, Karen Carpenter croons, "We've only just begun to live / White lace and promises / A kiss for luck and we're on our way." Music fades as "Pop, the Question" theme music fades in.].
Closing Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky theme music plays.]
Theme Outro (Melinda Lewis):
"Pop, the Question" was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Erica Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen, and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. [Theme music continues with "Pop, the Question!" vocals and a Wilhelm scream.]
Closing Theme Music (Speaker 1):
["Pop, the Question" theme music continues with Allen Iverson at a press conference.] I know it's important. I do; I honestly do. But we talking about practice, man. What're we talking about? Practice?! We talking about practice, man. [Theme music fades out.]